guess that noise....

[Chadlebowski]

A really ridiculous request, but you never know....

I have noticed a slight repetitive 'clicking' sound from the RH cylinder on my 09 Stelvio. This noise almost sounds like arcing from the spark plug but I've had the cover off and didn't see anything unusual. The LH cylinder doesn't sound the same, i.e is quieter.

The bike has been over once or twice, on both sides, but never with an excessive force and not for a good few months now - the noise is about two days old.

Any possible ideas?

Also - as I had the spark plug cover off, I noticed quite a fair bit of dust etc resting on the boot... What's the best for getting this out: air gun before removing the boot? or will pulling the boot out dislodge all the detritus on it's way out.

Thanks for reading... Especially since it's either going to be (a) take it to a dealer for a check-up (b) it's fine - get on and ride. (previous experience has always been option b)

 

[john zibell]

First think I would do is verify valve clearances. Also using compressed air to clean out the spark plug area is a good way to get the stuff out before and after removing the spark plug boot.

 

[WayneOrwig]

Check the valve clearances ASAP if you have the original flat tappets. If they are worn, STOP riding it.
The spark plug caps ARE easy to damage, and can arc. But you usually have hard start issues and such along with that.
There is a large hole, just over the exhaust pipe, that allows cool air to blow between the exhaust valves, then to the spark plug, and out the back near the fuel injectors. That can let bugs and dirt in around the spark plug. So yes, blow it out. Pull the cap VERY CAREFULLY. Blow the area out again. Once the spark plugs are out, don't blow the dirt around. You don't want it to get down in the spark plug hole.
If you have the original tappets, get the valve clearances inspected.

 

[canuck1969]

There is a port just above the exhaust pipe on the cylinder. Blow compressed air through there and that will blow out any dust, dirt to the other side of the cylinder. This is the same place you can insert a screwdriver to pop off the plug cap.

That noise could be several things, some good, some not so good. Like John said, recheck the clearances to make sure they are in spec as that is the best case senario that they are a little on the loose side. That will normally give a ticking or light tapping sound. Sometimes on and off, sometime constant depending on how loose they are.

That is the good news senario, the bad news scenario is it is starting to eat up the cam on the right side. Think you have an 09. Has the cam recall or roller conversion been done. 1st off, I am not a fully believer of the roller conversion as preventative as I still have a 2012 with 50K KM and no apparent issue, and do not want to propagate fear mongering, but you may want to investigate it further if the valve clearances are ok. That sound is more like a light clacking or scraping like metal eating metal and is consistent, not necessarily on and then off for a few seconds. Worse when hot then cold. It will also get louder with time. Good news is they will give you the parts for free to repair, bad news is you will need to deal with Piaggio to get it.

 

[Chadlebowski]

Right - thank you for the input... I bought the bike second hand and do not know whether i have the original flat tappets. Without going through the paperwork, how easy is this to identify? I've just passed the 16k mi mark, and the valve clearances were last done about 5k miles ago. How likely is it that they are out again?

Also, further diagnostic info: this morning, i tried to shift the rocker cover\cylinder (guess to see if anything wobbled) and the clicking was replaced by two intermittent clicks that were much louder and definitely sounded electrical.

Still - very glad for all the response from people who know what they're talking about!

 

[Chadlebowski]

Ok so I rode the 20miles home and took the earplugs out to listen again. Maybe I imagined the whole thing as it sounded hunky dory. I've checked my service history and there's no evidence of the cam recall work. I will get the feeler gauges out and check the valve clearances

 

[canuck1969]

If I understand you correctly, you tried to shift the valve cover with the bike running and you heard the noise (and sounded electrical). That is most likely an issue with the spark plug cap or wire (most likely the cap). Pull the cap off and look for white marks, even better pull off the plug cap cover and starter up in the dark. You may just see the arcing. If that is the case, then there are NGK replacement caps available. A very common thing as the stock caps are very brittle.

As for the valve gaps, yes they can open up over 5000miles, especially if it is flat tappets and it is starting to wear. That is the first sign. It can also just be normal wear in the valve seats.
You can easily tell if you have flat or roller tappet just buy looking under the cover. Checking if the cams are worn is a little tougher and will require removing the cam box. Not impossible, but takes some time and patience. Took me about 45 minutes to remove mine and inspect

Flat Tappet...




Roller Tappets:

 

[Chadlebowski]

Thank you canuck. If I'm ever in your part of the world I'll be sure to buy you a beer.

Don't suppose you could extend your knowledge to refreshing my valve clearance skills?

I'm familiar with the lock nuts etc and that the engine needs to be cold... Have only been shown this once and I'm a tad rusty: use something like a rod to measure the distance and spin the wheel till the cycle is at its height... Then which two valves are in and which two are out?

I really do apologise for my awful terminology but I assure you I'll only need reminding once!

 

[canuck1969]

Go to this link. Others have posted procedures and a took and copied them into PDF tutorials. There will be on in there for the 2012 Stelvio NTX Valve adjustment. The procedure is the same for your year as the engines are the same.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/th...s-maintenance-tasks-on-the-stelvio-ntx.10815/

Things to look for:

1. Use a valve clearance of 4 thou Intake and 6 thou Exhaust ( .10mm and .15mm). Check them first before you do any adjustment. If you cannot figure out if it is too loose on the feeler, just go up one size. If that does not fit you are good.
2. Don't worry abut cleaning the adjusters and you don't need to have a feeler gauge under both adjusters at the same time.
3. If you put a flat blade screwdriver through the opening above the exhaust pipe connection you can pop the sparkplug cap off. Failing that, you can use a zip tie (cable tie) inserted under the 90 degree part and pull up. Either way works. This is when you need to look at the cap. If it is the stock one you should change it at sometime to something that is more durable. Just do a search on the forum and you will find the replacement. It is an NGK SB05E. There is a tutorial in the link on how to change it. There is one there about changing the rubber end of it but it is not needed. The SB05E will work. If you see short circuit marks (white) or holes, some good electrical tape around the area will get you going again until you can replace it.
4. When you tighten the adjusting nut make the gap a little tight first as when you screw the locking nut down the gap will go bigger as the threads compress a little. Just takes some practice to get it right.

Ideally, if you are going to adjust the valves you should also resync the TB. Not a show stopper but worth getting the equipment to do it just in case.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

 

[john zibell]

Go to this link. Others have posted procedures and a took and copied them into PDF tutorials. There will be on in there for the 2012 Stelvio NTX Valve adjustment. The procedure is the same for your year as the engines are the same.

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/th...s-maintenance-tasks-on-the-stelvio-ntx.10815/

Things to look for:

1. Use a valve clearance of 10 thou Intake and 15 thou Exhaust ( .4mm and .6mm). Check them first before you do any adjustment. If you cannot figure out if it is too loose on the feeler, just go up one size. If that does not fit you are good.
2. Don't worry abut cleaning the adjusters and you don't need to have a feeler gauge under both adjusters at the same time.
3. If you put a flat blade screwdriver through the opening above the exhaust pipe connection you can pop the sparkplug cap off. Failing that, you can use a zip tie (cable tie) inserted under the 90 degree part and pull up. Either way works. This is when you need to look at the cap. If it is the stock one you should change it at sometime to something that is more durable. Just do a search on the forum and you will find the replacement. It is an NGK SB05E. There is a tutorial in the link on how to change it. There is one there about changing the rubber end of it but it is not needed. The SB05E will work. If you see short circuit marks (white) or holes, some good electrical tape around the area will get you going again until you can replace it.
4. When you tighten the adjusting nut make the gap a little tight first as when you screw the locking nut down the gap will go bigger as the threads compress a little. Just takes some practice to get it right.

Ideally, if you are going to adjust the valves you should also resync the TB. Not a show stopper but worth getting the equipment to do it just in case.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Canuck, I think you got your units of measure reversed. Should they be 0.1mm (0.004 inch)intake, and 0.15mm (0.006 inch) exhaust for valve clearance? Also I use the BMW technique of using two gauges at the same time ( i.e. measure both intakes at teh same time) to prevent the rocker to rocker shaft clearance from impacting the reading. I've observed the rockers shift when only using one gauge.

 

[canuck1969]

Crap your right. I just remember 4 and 6 and 10 and 15. 4 and 6 thou, 0.1mm and 0.15mm...John you had 0.01mm, 4 thou is 0.1mm. See, if the damn Americans would have went metric we would have this problem.

Fair enough on the double feelers. I always just go back and double check the clearance just to make sure anyways.

 

[john zibell]

Crap your right. I just remember 4 and 6 and 10 and 15. 4 and 6 thou, 0.1mm and 0.15mm...John you had 0.01mm, 4 thou is 0.1mm. See, if the damn Americans would have went metric we would have this problem.

Fair enough on the double feelers. I always just go back and double check the clearance just to make sure anyways.

Yes, an extra zero. Thanks for catching that. I've corrected my post. BTW, I prefer working in standard measurement especially when I'm fitting a crankshaft in a Model T engine (shoot for 0.0015 inch). The metric clearance numbers would drive me crazy!!

 

[WayneOrwig]

Also, further diagnostic info: this morning, i tried to shift the rocker cover\cylinder (guess to see if anything wobbled) and the clicking was replaced by two intermittent clicks that were much louder and definitely sounded electrical.

If you remove the cover over the spark plug wires, it should become obvious if it is an arc. You will hear the loud crap of the arc, and may even see it at the bend in the cap.
Normal tappet noise will vary with engine temperature. Usually quieter when cold, and louder when hot. But it you have flat tappets, inspect those very often.

 

[John Warner]

https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/half-a-stelvio.15265/#post-110768

 

[Chadlebowski]

Ok. So I have flat tappets.

Got the covers off, checked the valve clearances. Inlet was bang on, exhaust slightly tight, although not quite 0.1...

Although, the inside of the cover looked like this:



Is that just normal for cold oil? Please don't say it's fatal........

 

[canuck1969]

OK, I won't say it....but it is not good. I don't understand what it is with UK bikes. We have cold weather here also (In Canada) and have never see that on my bike. You are not the first person to have this issue.

Depending on who you talk to, there is speculation as to this causing premature tappet and cam failure and after seen this I may be sliding over to that group. Comes from not only the cold, but from the excess moisture in your climate and short rides that don't give the oil time enough to come to temp. Mix everything together and you get mayonnaise that most engine parts will not take to kindly.

First off clean up what you can and change the oil and filter. Then change it, get it to temp (ie long ride) and drain it again. After that (and after you re-fill it again) see what it sounds like but I am fearing that you may already have some damage. The fact that the valve clearances were close to spec is a good sign, but you are also assuming that the original owner had them at 10 and 15 thou. There are some that run at 15 and 20 thou but since yours is an older model I doubt that the original owner did that.

Get that crap out of there and see what it sounds like. Worse case scenario (other than cylinder damage but doubt that since the oil gets pretty hot in there) is the tappets and cams are done and Guzzi should get you a roller set free of charge (assuming you don't show them these pictures). Best case, you ride along your merry way. Lets hope for the best at this case but you need to get that cleaned up.

 

[Chadlebowski]

Oh well - I suppose it's good to know I'm not the first one to have that issue.

I've scooped as much of it out as possible. It's odd as the oil in there was perfectly happy 5000 miles ago - the last valve clearance and oil change was done by me.

To be perfectly honest, though, I'm thinking of trading this bike in for a 2013 NTX I have my eye on. There's been a host of issues with this bike and my gut instinct is telling me to shift it on before the 18k mark, while it's still holding some value...

Assuming I only do another 500 odd miles, and trade-in early next year, is there the risk of total failure? If I get on to Piaggio straight away, realistically I'm looking at quite some time before the replacements arrive right? And I assume that's probably a job for a qualified mechanic?

 

[John Warner]

Canuck's pretty-much nailed it there.

When it's back on the road, don't do short journeys (<10-12 miles or so), and give it some 'stick' occasionally in that time.
My Wife often asks why I was so long when I just 'popped-down-to-the-shops', I tell her it's good for the Bike to do a few more miles!

I've blanked-off the Side Ducts on mine, primarily to get more warm air onto my Knees (I can ride with Jeans in near-zero °C temps and still be comfortable), but it also decreases the cooling to the Rocker-covers.
I've also blanked over the lower half of the Oil Cooler for Winter.

I'm going to fit an Oil Temp Gauge next, will be interesting to see what sort of figures it shows, just trying to decide the best location for the Sender . . .

 

[Chadlebowski]

Well this is my only form of transport so it's never off the rode. Just rode home in the lovely English rain. The initial clicking noise wasn't there (and hasn't been for a few days). My commute from April till now was only around 6 miles so daresay that's where all the mayonnaise originated. Now it's more like 20 but I suppose it's wishful thinking to hope it'll all just burn off and sort itself out.
Earplugs out and head next to cylinder to listen for anything untoward. Never paid that much attention when all was well... There's a faint whirring noise, not sure if that's as it should be. Certainly nothing sounding scraping or clunking (aside from the clutch not being pulled)

 

[canuck1969]

Well this is my only form of transport so it's never off the rode. Just rode home in the lovely English rain. The initial clicking noise wasn't there (and hasn't been for a few days). My commute from April till now was only around 6 miles so daresay that's where all the mayonnaise originated. Now it's more like 20 but I suppose it's wishful thinking to hope it'll all just burn off and sort itself out.
Earplugs out and head next to cylinder to listen for anything untoward. Never paid that much attention when all was well... There's a faint whirring noise, not sure if that's as it should be. Certainly nothing sounding scraping or clunking (aside from the clutch not being pulled)

Then you may be ok. Change the oil and see what happens. Make sure you clean out all the mayonnaise as there is still water in there. Once it appears it is hard to get rid of without cleaning it out as the valve cover itself really never comes to temp. Best way to listen to the cylinders is with a long screwdriver with the handle pressed to the ear and the tip on one of the valve cover bolts (unless you have a auto stethoscope). If you can't hear anything at idle of rev that does not sound normal (I know, its a Guzzi and what is normal, but you know your bike better than everyone) you may be ok. Only time will tell.