Guzzi engine is derived from a Tractor

[sandy]

Is this true ?

 

[ferdi]

uuups, double

 

[ferdi]

Is this true ?

no,
at the end of the fifties the out-of-work gone racing department of guzzi developed a V-engine to be installed in a new little Fiat. Unfortunatly Fiat did not use this engine, but this design is/was the basis for the later coming (mid sixties) Police Guzzi in Italy and upcoming V2 Guzzis.
i heared that it was used as a static engine also, but never have seen one.
interesting is, that this one "Northrop Grumman RQ-5A" also used Guzzi motors at the beginning :mrgreen: .

 

[Series4]

The basic layout of the 3x3 Autoveicolo da Montagna 'il mulo' (http://www.flickr.com/photos/30416042@N06/3491854825/) inspired the V7 engine but to say the V7 was derived from a tractor is wrong. Just smile politely and change the subject.

 

[stromcat]

I heard it was originally designed for a military vehicle,some sort of half track I believe.

 

[john zibell]

I believe this military vehicle started the V twin.

 

[moto]

No, the Guzzi twin was not derived from a tractor engine, nor an engine designed for a Fiat. I say this based on the definitive account given in Greg Field's book, Guzzi Big Twins, MBI Publishing, 1998, now sadly out of print.

There was a 750cc engine for the 3x3 tractor called the Mechanical Mule, which Todero helped develop. There was also a 500cc engine that Carcano designed for the Fiat 500. Both were 90 degree V-twins, but neither was developed into the 700cc Guzzi motorcycle engine that Carcano and Todero later designed. Greg includes direct quotes from both Carcano and Todero explicitly denying the connections, and also gives important facts about features of the designs that are different from the Guzzi motorcycle engine.

It is a story that is just too good to be true, or to go away even in the face of direct evidence.

Greg Field's book is extremely impressive throughout, and based on a great deal of research and interviews with principal parties to Guzzi's history. I can't recommend it highly enough. I'm tempted to quote it at length, but that seems unfair to the author and publisher.

Moto

 

[ghezzi]

When people make those derogatory remarks about my beloved I just say, "No, it was actually a sullage pump" :lol:

 

[Cat City Rider]

I thought it was used as a mud pump, air compressor motor, small aircraft engine, etc. It is after all, a rather versatile little motor.

 

[moto]

I thought it was used as a mud pump, air compressor motor, small aircraft engine, etc. It is after all, a rather versatile little motor.

It was designed as a motorcycle engine, to compete for an Italian police motorcycle contract. Again, see Greg Field's book for the details.

 

[ferdi]

who knows who is right ?

Wikipedia.de tells following:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moto_Guzzi

"Der technische Grundstock für die heutigen Modelle wurde bereits Ende der 1950er Jahre gelegt. Damals entwickelte die „arbeitslos“ gewordene Rennabteilung den quer eingebauten 90°-V-Zweizylinder mit längsliegender Kurbelwelle zum Einbau in den neuen kleinen Fiat. Mitte der 1960er Jahre wurde dieses Motorkonzept für eine Ausschreibung eines italienischen Behördenmotorrades reaktiviert, an die Anforderungen eines Motorrades angepasst und mit Kardanantrieb kombiniert. Das charakteristische Merkmal der Moto-Guzzi-Motorräder sind seitdem die V-förmig seitlich aus dem Profil ragenden Zylinderköpfe."

I know that most of you will not understand it because its german, but google translator or any other one should do the job to make it nearly understandable :mrgreen: .

 

[moto]

who knows who is right ?

Dear Ferdi,

The Wikipedia article has no citations supporting the quoted passage. Its author or authors are unknown to me. Anyone can modify Wikipedia articles at any time. Therefore I don't think its vague and unsupported claims are to be relied on.

Guilio Carcano and Umberto Todero designed the V7 motorcycle engine. Carcano did not design the Mule engine (Micucci did), but helped develop it. Todero did design the Fiat engine. Therefore, Carcano and Todero would know the true story. Here is what they said about it (G. Field, Moto Guzzi Big Twins, p. 15):

Todero: "Comparing the head design and structure, the distribution, displacement, lube and fuel systems, and engine crankcases is enough to demonstrate that the engines are totally different and come from different ideas."

Carcano: "The [Mule] engine has nothing in common with the V7. It had a forced cooling system and was a 90-degree V, but its cylinders, heads, and engine casing, etc., differed completely."

"Totally different." "Nothing in common." -- Could it be made any plainer?

The way we try to determine the truth about historical facts is to find original sources, such as these statements by the actual designers. Greg Field acknowledges the help of dozens of Guzzi authorities, including Carcano. I trust Greg's work, in part because I know him through his past extensive participation on this and other Guzzi forums, and in part because of the nature of the book as a whole.

The idea that the Guzzi engine was developed from the Mule or Fiat engines is without any reasonable question incorrect. It is one of a type of story that appeals to lazy or incurious minds that would like to have a bit of "special knowledge" to impress themselves and their acquaintances, without actually knowing anything. By now, it has become a meme, a free-floating idea that reproduces itself because of its attractiveness, spreading around the world to catch the unwary.

Beware the Wikipedia, Ferdi.

Moto

 

[Cat City Rider]

I thought it was used as a mud pump, air compressor motor, small aircraft engine, etc. It is after all, a rather versatile little motor.

It was designed as a motorcycle engine, to compete for an Italian police motorcycle contract. Again, see Greg Field's book for the details.

Yes, of course, but the engine was repurposed for many other things.

 

[moto]

I thought it was used as a mud pump, air compressor motor, small aircraft engine, etc. It is after all, a rather versatile little motor.

It was designed as a motorcycle engine, to compete for an Italian police motorcycle contract. Again, see Greg Field's book for the details.

Yes, of course, but the engine was repurposed for many other things.

I'm glad we agree! I was trying to keep to the original point of the thread, the derivation of the motorcycle engine. Sorry I misunderstood your intent.

While we're at it, may I raise the question of what repurposings of the motorcycle engine we really have direct evidence for. It's well known that airplane, drone and automobile applications have been made, and I'm not asking for any more evidence of those.

But what actual examples are there of Guzzi-V7-motorcycle-engine-based ditch pumps, mud pumps (!), air compressor motors, etc.? Were there production runs of such things? Home-builts? Do we have photos? Authoritative accounts? I've never seen them, but would be very interested to do so.

My impression so far has been that Guzzi's were called ditch pumps and air compressors because they look like them, not because there were known conversions. Thanks for bringing this up.

 

[Mi_ka]

Well, the only connection I see is that the same guys have been guiding the engine R&D departments of the company and of course any design going through their departments accumulates design knowledge for later use.

As far as other uses, I have personally seen an auxiliary fire engine pump installed on a local pickup fire truck: The pump is driven by an ... BMW oilhead.

 

[schimenator]

Moto Guzzi takes the award for the weirdest and most unique. The engines that propel modern day Guzzis are based on tractor engine designs that are over half a century old. The chassis that is used on this particular bike is the latest iteration of a frame designed by an American Dentist for his race-bikes in the mid eighties.

Best regards
Anthony

Dr. John? I recall reading about him in the 80's in some motorcycle mag. I always thought it was weird that a dentist would be heading up a race team.

 

[Penis Rotor]

The current big block designs owe nothing to the 'Past'. The Original V7 Motor had nothing in common with any of the military engines, (Note the first hand refferences from Greg's interviews.).

Dr. John Wittner's 'Spine Frame' design was an interpretation of Tony Foale's work for which he was never given credit.

Who cares, ( I doubt Tony does?). Keep on arguing over irrelevancies in history as long as you like. Nobody with any real interest in the company will really give a shit.

Pete

 

[AnthonyMartello]

Hello friends,

I have to see things such as their famous wind tunnel. At the in-factory test track I was offered the chance to drive a brand new V-11 Sport around the track. This was a very cool feeling! In the factory service shop ("Assistenza Clienti") the men working there rummaged around in their many cabinets of literature and gave me a priceless factory parts book for my machine!

Best regards
Anthony

 

[Bill Hagan]

Hello friends,

I have to see things such as their famous wind tunnel. At the in-factory test track I was offered the chance to drive a brand new V-11 Sport around the track. This was a very cool feeling! In the factory service shop ("Assistenza Clienti") the men working there rummaged around in their many cabinets of literature and gave me a priceless factory parts book for my machine!

Best regards
Anthony

Lordy, you must be a charmer to get that experience ... or have a deep pocket for bribes! :laugh:

Enviously,

Bill