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Head-scratcher - '21 HD Sportster S

So I'm a bit at a loss here... seems the two-wheel moto industry is destined to self-destruct. Why does a any rider need a $15k, 500 lb, 121 hp machine with a 3.1 gallon fuel tank? It's already been stated that HD has been criticized for too little too late, and now people are screaming they finally did this, and getting criticized for it as well. I'm lost on the new direction, including their 150hp Pan America. First embarrassment was the India-made HD 500 & 750s, now this. Have to say, same with Indian sadly.

I've stated before, and as much as I hate typing this, there's huge merit to having a tiered licensing system where newer riders are forced to ride machines that develops skills, and won't try to kill them starting on day one.

Guzzi has (purposefully) chosen not to make any significant power with the small block series, even up to the new V7-850, yet they remain to be a solid seller from young to old, and they say it's the only motor their keeping. I got the V7 III to 61.5 rwhp @820cc, and the V85TT to 80 rwhp and both are a hoot to ride. Everyone that owns them seems to love them. Perhaps Guzzi got it it right. We shall see what they unveil in September. A 1000cc 100hp small and light bike would be a winner for them I would wager... even if it has to be (UGH) water-cooled.

I know I'm making serious power numbers with my GTM builds, but they're for seasoned Guzzi-passionate riders, being that I'm one too; A slightly bitter professional who enjoys analog power, living in a place where I can freely enjoy it. Anyone with significant seat time under them (say 500k+ miles as a minimum,) probably agrees that 90 rwhp is about all anyone needs, and 100+ is simply a riot. 120+ is what the top race-bikes had when I was younger, without all of the digital help. The new liter bikes are simply idiotic. I've lost a lot of solid rider/racer friends on them over the years, and I hate hearing when anyone I know gets one.


I agree with you wholeheartedly Todd. I only started riding 4 years ago, but after learning on my dad's SV1000 (terrible idea), then getting my Ninja 250, then getting my V7, I've come to the same conclusion as you. There is no point in getting a motorcycle with massive HP numbers, they're just unusable on the street unless you stick in 2nd gear. I went to a bike meet the other day, and I don't think I'll go back again. Everyone there was asking when I'd upgrade to a liter bike or something.... always bragging about how much power their Duc/Harley/Honda makes, or saying how 50 horses is "not enough these days". It's always so interesting how invasive the belief that power is the be-all-end-all in motorcycling is. I hypothesize that it's a construct propagated by dealers and carried on through generations of motorcycling.

While I have been and still am pining after one of your GTM builds (just saw an '07 Griso for sale here, 23k km and for less than $5k CAD), I always forget about it when I hop into my V7's saddle. That said, I am always glancing at your BBK to up it to 61HP, would make road trips a bit more fun. And plus, I still don't have room in my apartment for another bike! Unless my partner pulls the trigger on getting on two wheels :)

I do like the look of the Harley, but not for that price nor those specs.
 
I agree with you wholeheartedly Todd. I only started riding 4 years ago, but after learning on my dad's SV1000 (terrible idea), then getting my Ninja 250, then getting my V7, I've come to the same conclusion as you. There is no point in getting a motorcycle with massive HP numbers, they're just unusable on the street unless you stick in 2nd gear.
Really appreciate the post, and that puts a smile on my face hearing this from a newer rider. Was it you or your Dad that chose to have you start on the SV1000?

I went to a bike meet the other day, and I don't think I'll go back again. Everyone there was asking when I'd upgrade to a liter bike or something.... always bragging about how much power their Duc/Harley/Honda makes, or saying how 50 horses is "not enough these days". It's always so interesting how invasive the belief that power is the be-all-end-all in motorcycling is. I hypothesize that it's a construct propagated by dealers and carried on through generations of motorcycling.
Yes, and the industry as a whole is standing around wondering why this segment is failing miserably... yet nothing is changing. Your last point made me think of the simple fact; Though launched with the Boomer generation and the '84 Ninja 900 followed with the air/oil GSX-Rs, I'm frustrated to say that perhaps my generation (GenX) is the one that reinforced this ignorance in the late 80s. It all went downhill fast from there with the ZX-10/11, 900RR - ETC. Odd to me it's the Boomer generation that was responsible for launching this mess, yet are the ones around me set me straight in my youth. Big bore HDs and the Racing Series of those times started building immensely powerful machines.

While I have been and still am pining after one of your GTM builds (just saw an '07 Griso for sale here, 23k km and for less than $5k CAD), I always forget about it when I hop into my V7's saddle. That said, I am always glancing at your BBK to up it to 61HP, would make road trips a bit more fun. And plus, I still don't have room in my apartment for another bike! Unless my partner pulls the trigger on getting on two wheels :)
Both of these also make me smile, as when I was doing the BBK for the V7, I was only imagining a small few that would care to do it. But after building a few, I see the merits of the investment for those who love the V7. I still haven't spent any time on the V7-850 yet, but based on the dyno charts, my 820 kit will give it a serious run even when mod'ed I am betting. It's my GTM builds that I thought would be getting more traction than they are, though the sales are slow but steady. It takes a special buyer for one, and typically space and time are the reasons I am hearing on why people aren't jumping on one sooner, so you've confirmed that as well. Appreciated.

I do like the look of the Harley, but not for that price nor those specs.
Hmmm... can you expand on what part of the look that you like? The Bobber was a design target for this market and has failed miserably.

Enjoy these conversations... they'll be used as "evidence" in an industry round table once things can finally resume to normal.
 
Todd is right in that there is nothing like riding a slow bike, FAST!
It's easier by far to ride a slow bike fast and have a lot of fun, than a fast bike slow.
Kinda, like the ridiculous jacked up trucks I see, whose owners drive over speed bumps at about 1 KM per hour. Heaven forbid their big monster truck should have to actually use any of that suspension travel.
 
Really appreciate the post, and that puts a smile on my face hearing this from a newer rider. Was it you or your Dad that chose to have you start on the SV1000?


Yes, and the industry as a whole is standing around wondering why this segment is failing miserably... yet nothing is changing. Your last point made me think of the simple fact; Though launched with the Boomer generation and the '84 Ninja 900 followed with the air/oil GSX-Rs, I'm frustrated to say that perhaps my generation (GenX) is the one that reinforced this ignorance in the late 80s. It all went downhill fast from there with the ZX-10/11, 900RR - ETC. Odd to me it's the Boomer generation that was responsible for launching this mess, yet are the ones around me set me straight in my youth. Big bore HDs and the Racing Series of those times started building immensely powerful machines.


Both of these also make me smile, as when I was doing the BBK for the V7, I was only imagining a small few that would care to do it. But after building a few, I see the merits of the investment for those who love the V7. I still haven't spent any time on the V7-850 yet, but based on the dyno charts, my 820 kit will give it a serious run even when mod'ed I am betting. It's my GTM builds that I thought would be getting more traction than they are, though the sales are slow but steady. It takes a special buyer for one, and typically space and time are the reasons I am hearing on why people aren't jumping on one sooner, so you've confirmed that as well. Appreciated.


Hmmm... can you expand on what part of the look that you like? The Bobber was a design target for this market and has failed miserably.

Enjoy these conversations... they'll be used as "evidence" in an industry round table once things can finally resume to normal.



Hahaha, yeah absolutely. I voiced an interest in riding motorcycles one day and my dad offered to give me a quick run down of riding on his SV1000. Nothing on a busy road thankfully, just some stop and go stuff in front of our house. I had to be so careful when opening the throttle, it felt like a few mm would send the bike flying!

Definitely makes sense. It hurts to hear that it is still continuing through my generation (millenial) and onward still... My little brother's friend just picked up a 600 class naked and of course goes around belittling any other riders who ride anything smaller. A case of regurgitation of what they've heard on the internet I guess.

Don't get me wrong Todd! I am STILL interested in a GTM, perhaps not as soon as I'd like, as I'm living in a limited space apartment coping w/ student loans, but someday perhaps. Hopefully sooner than later... That GTM 1.5 styling is calling to me :) If only the funds could keep up :( So tempting to part with the V7 to fund a GTM, but like I said, every ride with the small block always has me smiling. That said, I'd like to find a base CARC bike that has ABS and traction control. I don't plan on having to use them, but it's nice to know that there's even just a basic electronic safety net just in case.

Absolutely! Yeah, I mostly like the styling (minus the ginormous exhaust that is). I'm not much of a Bobber kind of fellow, but I do like the look of the Sportster S; kinda like a cross between an Indian FTR and a Scout. I'd never buy either because I feel that the brand name has aged poorly. All the specs from price to weight to power are definitely NOT appealing to me hahahaha.
 
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Absolutely! Yeah, I mostly like the styling (minus the ginormous exhaust that is). I'm not much of a Bobber kind of fellow, but I do like the look of the Sportster S; kinda like a cross between an Indian FTR and a Scout. I'd never buy either because I feel that the brand name has aged poorly. All the specs from price to weight to power are definitely NOT appealing to me hahahaha.

The Indian FTR is one of the very bikes I would consider. The other two are an MV Agusta Turismo and MV Agusta Stradale.
 
Heh, of course it is! Love to hear your thoughts on this thread topic.
I'm all for analog bikes. My monster 900(carbed) will always be the one that got away.
Ironically my V7 is the first bike I got with Electronic aids; my fire breathing 1098 Streetfighter didnt even have them.
Which is why im on the fence of selling my V7 to fund my business ventures, and hopefully get one of your builds.
I want to go crazy with it so I'm willing to give up for what i covet
 
I'm all for analog bikes. My monster 900(carbed) will always be the one that got away.
Ironically my V7 is the first bike I got with Electronic aids; my fire breathing 1098 Streetfighter didnt even have them.
Which is why im on the fence of selling my V7 to fund my business ventures, and hopefully get one of your builds.
I want to go crazy with it so I'm willing to give up for what i covet
OK, so you've owned more bikes than I knew about (obviously). What drew you to the V7 since you've owned the other bigger displacement Ducs?
Hope to get you on a GTM sooner than later.
 
OK, so you've owned more bikes than I knew about (obviously). What drew you to the V7 since you've owned the other bigger displacement Ducs?
Hope to get you on a GTM sooner than later.
The V7 was basically all I wanted at the time: italian, a twin, but without having to change out belts or adjust valves every 7k,(half rings are a nightmare....). the V7 has almost the same intervals, but I'm done in a quarter of the time it'd take on the ducs, especially that SF with the 4 valves.
There weren't any grisos for sale at my local dealer, but there she was in that amazing blue, it was hard to resist.
In stock form I was really questioning my decision and was thinking of trading it in. Thanks to you though, I've found the middle ground for it. Definitely woke up this little motor
I'm definitely leaning on selling it though. Its gonna hurt for a little while, but knowing that I could have a bike that sounds like yours though eases it.
 
Harley Davidson... efficiently converts gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower.

That's a joke that might have to be retired now that they are ditching the strokers and moving to an over-square engine design (again!). Up to this point, all their marketing and fanboy hype was all about torque, torque, TORQUE! HOW MANY TORQUES YOU GOT!?! LOL

They are now finally advertising HP values. The Revolution Max in the Pan-American is apparently rated at 150 HP and revs to ~9.5K. De-tuned for this new Sportster, but still nothing to sneeze at. And still significantly more than any MG motors are putting out.

__Jason
 
That's a joke that might have to be retired now that they are ditching the strokers and moving to an over-square engine design (again!). Up to this point, all their marketing and fanboy hype was all about torque, torque, TORQUE! HOW MANY TORQUES YOU GOT!?! LOL

They are now finally advertising HP values. The Revolution Max in the Pan-American is apparently rated at 150 HP and revs to ~9.5K. De-tuned for this new Sportster, but still nothing to sneeze at. And still significantly more than any MG motors are putting out.

__Jason
Liquid cooling makes a hell of a difference in output.
I really wish we could see a water cooled Moto Guzzi just to see what they're really capable of.
 
That's a joke that might have to be retired now that they are ditching the strokers and moving to an over-square engine design (again!). Up to this point, all their marketing and fanboy hype was all about torque, torque, TORQUE! HOW MANY TORQUES YOU GOT!?! LOL

They are now finally advertising HP values. The Revolution Max in the Pan-American is apparently rated at 150 HP and revs to ~9.5K. De-tuned for this new Sportster, but still nothing to sneeze at. And still significantly more than any MG motors are putting out.

__Jason


There is so much more to a motorcycle than horsepower. In fact, horsepower is really the least significant number in the specifications list.

I’ve been up close and personal with the Pan American. It is the ugliest thing since Pierre Terblanche’s butt ugly Ducatis. It simply couldn’t be more ugly if you tried. The V85 TT rides and handles better IMHO.
 
There's many things about it that I don't like (complexity and weight to name two), however I think you may get your wish in a few months.
Agreed but just like how I had an air and liquid cooled pair of ducatis, I'd like to do the same with Moto Guzzi.
 
There's no way that Guzzi will remain competitive with other brands while also complying with ever more stringent emissions regulations without going to a water-cooled engine. Its inevitable if they want to survive long-term. Even Harley has admitted that times change and modernization has to happen, or you get left behind.

__Jason
 
There's no way that Guzzi will remain competitive with other brands while also complying with ever more stringent emissions regulations without going to a water-cooled engine. Its inevitable if they want to survive long-term. Even Harley has admitted that times change and modernization has to happen, or you get left behind.

__Jason
What he said.
 
The next logical evolution for Moto Guzzi has actually been proven.

Think Motus MSTR.

Yes, Motus went bust because they spent everything developing their 90 degree, water cooled, 1650cc , 180hp flagship of a motor.

Piaggio would be foolish indeed not to learn from the Motus and Ducati’s Panigale Desmosedici Stradale V4 engine. I think they should buy the rights to the engine which they could acquire for cheap no doubt.

The future of Moto Guzzi’s competitiveness lies in water cooled, high-tolerance, high performance, multi-cylinder 90 degree engines that can easily meet the Euro 5 standards.

I for one would LOVE to see a Moto Guzzi power-plant based upon the Motus version.

Could you imagine a new Norge to compete with the BMW R1250RT, using a 90 degree V4 churning 180hp ?

It would be simply awesome and I would buy one in a second.
 
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