Idle rpm to high when warm

[poon]

Have been doing some work on the bike during the weekend now, unfortunately my friens couldn't come by with the lambda, maybe next week.
I have changed the temp sensor now, and also removed the throttle bodies, that was a real pain in the *** to remove and put back again, never thought I would get it back. My local dealer was out of inlet gaskets, but I checked them and they seemed to be ok, I put some liquid gasket before putting them back again, it didn't seem to have been any leak there.
The TB were pretty dirty inside, as you can see in the attached pictures, https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5182885/TB.zip
I have cleaned them and removed the dirt inside them.
I also checked the valve clearance and set them to 0,10 for inlet and 0,15 for exhaust valves.
I had planned to change the exhaust gasket too, but when I was going to remove the nuts I realized that the previous owner had replaced one of the nuts with a regular one, that one was now pretty rusty and not possible to remove I tried with WD40 and also blow torch, neither worked. So I have to cut the nut with my dremel, but first I have to order the stud bolt and nut.

But the original problem with idle still exist, after that the engine has been hot, about 90 degrees Celsius and I let it go to idle at first the idle is ok, but after 15 - 20 seconds it starts to slowly increase till it's around 1900 - 2000 rpm.

I didn't get time to check why I have so low voltage for the charging of the battery, it got too dark outside to do that.
But if I remember correctly, to check the generator I should check the resistance between the two phases, it should be some resistance there I think, but it shouldn't have any contact with the ground. Then I measure the AC current between the two phases, Is this the correct way to do it?

 

[john zibell]

Check the V7 manual for how to test the alternator. If alternator tests good, then it is the regulator rectifier. I'm real familiar with the 1100 Tonti/Spine charging system but not the small block. Ir the voltage output test is good, there is no need for a resistance test. Checking the schematic I see it is a permanent magnet system. Just test the AC voltage output from the two yellow leads. Should have about 20 VAC at idle, the up to 80 VAC at about 5K RPM if she is like the big bikes.

You might be able to get the nut off using a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. This home made penetrating oil seems to work best. BTW, WD 40 won't penetrate a rusted fastener.

The creeping idle is still a puzzle. As for a gasket sealer, I hope you used a fuel resistant compound. The fuel in the intact tract will dissolve just about anything you used there.

 

[poon]

Check the V7 manual for how to test the alternator. If alternator tests good, then it is the regulator rectifier. I'm real familiar with the 1100 Tonti/Spine charging system but not the small block. Ir the voltage output test is good, there is no need for a resistance test. Checking the schematic I see it is a permanent magnet system. Just test the AC voltage output from the two yellow leads. Should have about 20 VAC at idle, the up to 80 VAC at about 5K RPM if she is like the big bikes.

You might be able to get the nut off using a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. This home made penetrating oil seems to work best. BTW, WD 40 won't penetrate a rusted fastener.

The creeping idle is still a puzzle. As for a gasket sealer, I hope you used a fuel resistant compound. The fuel in the intact tract will dissolve just about anything you used there.

I have tested the alternator now, at 2000 rpm it gives 35 Volt and around 60 volt at 4000 rpm, so there shouldn't be any problem with that one. I also measured the regulator, there's no signal at all when measuring from plus and ground to the yellow cables, I found this instruction how to do it, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDx3zgOLShY
So the rectifier has to be replaced I guess, or has anyone here been able to repair one of those ?
But it still gives around 13.4 Volt to the battery at 2000 rpm, but the voltage decreases with higher rpm.

The gasket sealer is a high temp. resisting mostly anything. But I will replace the gaskets there later on, but not looking forward to remove the TB's again

Now I think that I have a leak at the exhaust, can hear a different sound at some rpm's now. Guess the reason for that is that I tried to remove that rusty nut. Putting some ATF/Aceton mix on every night now. Hopefully it will loosen up when I get the new nuts and studs.

 

[sign216]

Here's a link to an electrical fault guide, that may help w the alternator:

http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf

 

[poon]

Check the V7 manual for how to test the alternator. If alternator tests good, then it is the regulator rectifier. I'm real familiar with the 1100 Tonti/Spine charging system but not the small block. Ir the voltage output test is good, there is no need for a resistance test. Checking the schematic I see it is a permanent magnet system. Just test the AC voltage output from the two yellow leads. Should have about 20 VAC at idle, the up to 80 VAC at about 5K RPM if she is like the big bikes.

You might be able to get the nut off using a 50/50 mix of acetone and ATF. This home made penetrating oil seems to work best. BTW, WD 40 won't penetrate a rusted fastener.

The creeping idle is still a puzzle. As for a gasket sealer, I hope you used a fuel resistant compound. The fuel in the intact tract will dissolve just about anything you used there.

The ATF/aceton seemed to work, the nut was still impossible to get off, but the stud got loose, same thing with all the other of the nuts. Even after when I tried with a blow torch to heaten the nuts it was impossible to get then off from the studs. But I had 4 new studs, so that wasn't a problem, but I only got 2 new nuts, rest in backorder.
So now I have a new gasket there with new studs and nuts.

The problem I had with the low voltage also got a solution, the way to test the rectifier in the link I posted here seemd to not work on this type of rectifier, but when I changed the multimeter to diode testing it worked (should have than that from start) so the rectifier is working as it should. I have previously cleaned all the contacts with oxide cleaner, but when I had the engine running and checking the contacts I could feel that the cables from the 30A fuse box were very warm.
It turned out that where the cables were crimped to the contacts inside the box was very oxidized. I took the contacts out and soldered them, after that I now have 14.2 V to the battery, but I have to change the fusebox, it was not so pretty on the inside, the plastic had melted a little bit there, but it's a standard fuse box and my local electronic store could have one home in 3 days.

So now it's only this problem with the idle that's increasing when it's getting warm. I tried with a new lambda, but that didn't make any difference and I have changed the temp sensor on the R head.
I didn't get the time to change the gasket at the TB manifolds, hope to be able to do that next weekend.
It that doesn't work maybe I'll try to send the injectors to cleaning, I have tried with Redline injector cleaning, but some say it doesn't help if it's really dirty there.

 

[sign216]

Glad you got the electrical problem fixed. That could have been difficult.

Re creeping idle; it might be the TB gasket, but who knows? I ended up using two gaskets on my right TB to fill the space and solve the leak.

As for cleaning injectors, I used this service http://www.rceng.com/Fuel-Injector-Cleaning-P43C0.aspx

Very happy w it, but it's in the US, so it may be a problem for you. They test the injectors before and after, so you know the results. I had around a 10% blockage, which surprised me, since the injectors weren't that old.

Joe

 

[poon]

Two weeks ago I replaced the throttle bodies with a pair that I bought at ebay, got a good price, 92 GBP including P & P.
They looked like a pair of new ones
After that I mounted them ( the rubber is not so easy to handle at 5 deg. C) I started to connect the computer and the TwinMax to get the throttle synchronization correct.
Resetting the TPS in Guzzidiag to start with and then I adjust the throttle bodies to be in sync. at 4000 rpm at 80 deg. C.
For the first time I don't have an idle where the engine could be running so now I have to open the air bypass screws to get an idle speed at approx. 1000 rpm.
Have been driving for 2 weeks now, without any problems of the idle increasing to 2000 rpm, but the temp has been a bit low here, -2 - 10 deg. C. I have had it running at idle for quite a long time to get it really warm, without any problems with the idle speed increasing.
For the first time I have to use the fast idle lever when it's cold
Hopefully this problem has been solved now, but I'm gonna send the fuel injectors for cleaning anyway, but that has to wait after that the snow has been falling here, I usually stops to drive after the first snow fall, most of the time in the beginning of december.

I had some observations when I removed the throttle bodies, the inlet valves seems to be a bit covered with coal, and in the throttle bodies there were some oil in the inlets, but the spark plugs looked OK.
I have always filled the oil to the upper markings of the oil dip stick when it's fully screwed down, as it says in my manual for the bike.
Maybe this oil is coming from the cylinder head ventilation.
But I haven't seen any smoke coming from the exhaust.

 

[GTM®]

All signs of EXTREME LEAN running. Fix it, fast. :blink:

 

[sign216]

The plug does look lean. I'm interested in the report from the cleaning service for the injectors.

Is that pic of the valve, of an intake valve? Odd. How many miles?

 

[poon]

The plug does look lean. I'm interested in the report from the cleaning service for the injectors.

Is that pic of the valve, of an intake valve? Odd. How many miles?

The valve is the intake valve and the bike has been running about 480000km.
It's seems a little strange with the carbon on the intake valves.

The plug was a little bit more light brown or light yellow in reality, but this pic. is from before change of throttle bodies.
But the bike is running good and no problem in acc.
I had some problem during the summer when it was hot and I gave gas from low speed at high gear, I heard some bad hammering from the cylinders, sounded like a bad diesel engine then.
But haven't heard that after the change, but we don't have any hot weather here anymore.

I will add the report from the injector cleaning here when it has been done.

 

[GTM®]

I had some problem during the summer when it was hot and I gave gas from low speed at high gear, I heard some bad hammering from the cylinders, sounded like a bad diesel engine then. But haven't heard that after the change, but we don't have any hot weather here anymore.

This is called "detonation" in which the cylinder is so hot, it detonates the fuel charge before the lug fires, which is almost a diesel. This is a well known problem I've been posting since 2007.
Fix the fueling, and you'll get more power and a much happier motor. I can be of help, contact me direct e-mail; Todd at GuzziTech.com

 

[Guz5]

Getting too hot seems a bit of a problem with what I have read here. It dosent take long to synch and reset if all systems are ok.. My view the Vacmate is the most accurate vac tester available. It sensors increments the anologue ones are incapable of. I have been using mine for 12 years now, not just at home but is the workshop daily.

Please check you have no vacuum leaks at the manifold rubbers or inlet spiggots. I use a small brass tube connected rubber hose connected to an lpg or propane bottle. The safe method. Petrol can be explosive.. duh... Brake cleaner may damage paint finishes. Carb cleaner is similar and messy

Also check inlet valve clearance or do a cylinder leak test. Report what you find please.
Cheers

 

[sign216]

Running lean can cause detonation, so that may be an issue for you.

I second the idea of looking for an intake leak. I found one in the joint between the metal intake manifold and the cylinder. I ended up having to use a double gasket to give enough mass to fill up the area.

If you cure the lean condition the detonation may fall into place. I hope it does, because it's really destructive.

 

[poon]

Yesterday I mounted a type of "Fat Duck" O2 manipulator that I have built by myself.
I cleaned of the spark plugs and then I have been running for about 60km. that's to work and home again.
Those are the pictures of the plugs today, it's not so easy to get the colors correct, in reality they are a little bit more light brown, but I have to use the flash, otherwise it looked like picture 3.

I have set the O2 manipulator a bit more richer today, gonna see tomorrow if there's any change.

I have checked the intake rubbers before to see if there can be any leakage, but so far I haven't seen any.
Think that I will try with the propane thing in the weekend, it's to dark now when I'm home from work, the sun goes down at 16:00 here now.

I have checked the valve clearance, but I don't have any tool to do a leak test, maybe it's enough to get a compression tester to see if there's any difference between the cylinders.

Maybe I should try to create a map without the lambda sond included, but then I'm not so sure about what value I should set the CO trim to.

 

[poon]

I have loaded a map with the lambda removed today, and been running the bike for about 20 mins. not so nice weather in Stockholm for the moment, 5 deg. Celsius and raining.
But it seems to run richer now, it feels a lot better in the throttle respons, and this is how the SP looks like after 20 mins. riding, a bit darker than before the change of the map.

I also did a test to check for leaks with the help of propane last week, but it seems to be no leaks at all at the manifolds rubber.

Update:
Today I purchased a simple compression meter to see if I have any difference in compression between the cylinders.
For the left one I got 7.9Kg. after a few revs. but for the right one I first got 7.0, but after pushing it for a couple of seconds more it went up to 7.4kg. I'm not sure about how much compression should be, but it shouldn't be that much of a difference between them

 

[john zibell]

I'm not familiar with the metric compression readings, but it seems like enough difference to warrant a leak down test. That will determine if it is valves or rings. You may need to take it to a shop as a compressed air source is needed as well as the equipment to monitor cylinder pressure and to listen for the air leakage.

 

[poon]

I'm not familiar with the metric compression readings, but it seems like enough difference to warrant a leak down test. That will determine if it is valves or rings. You may need to take it to a shop as a compressed air source is needed as well as the equipment to monitor cylinder pressure and to listen for the air leakage.

In PSI it will be for the right side 99 to 105 and for the left side 112, just multiply the kg. by 14.223.
As long as I have had this bike there has always been vibrations thats been visible in the right mirror, but not in the left side mirror, maybe thats caused by this difference in the cylinder compression.

Anyway the bike seems to behave good right now, but now I know that it could behave even better if I can get the cylinders compression to be equal. I have a compressor for air, but not the other equipment to do the leak test.
So I guess that I have to leave that to some shop to do that test.
The instrument to do the leak test costs around 150$ for the cheapest ones here.

 

[john zibell]

On multi cylinder bikes if the compression is within 10 PSI it is considered OK. With only two, the closer the better. Your engine is on the edge of acceptable so if it were my bike I'd look into the cause of the difference and correct the issue.