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Lean Fuel Condition

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by WindwardWarrior, Aug 24, 2018.

  1. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hey everyone in Guzzi land, it's Friday afternoon, finally.

    I''e noticed lately that my '08 Norge is running extremely lean compared to its previous rich burning condition.

    If you remember, I had the fried voltage regulator issue last year, which was overcome.

    The bike has a Guzzi Tech reflashed ECU, PCV, Autotune etc. and has been a beautiful running bike since the upgrade which was 5 seasons (60K)ago.

    Thinking it might be the O2 Sensor, I ran the O2 Sensor test which I am not able to complete as instructed. The reset button on the Autotune unit isn't functioning as intended. It appears to be stuck down.
    When I attempt to depress it, it is down and stays down.
    When I turn on the ignition, the O2 Sensor gets hot and the LED light on the Autotune will blink 2 slow flashes, pause for a moment, and then
    begin to flash. These flashes vary between 9 and 17. It then stays solid. I've changed the connection locations on both the PCV and the Autotune with similar results.

    I sent Todd an email and told him I'd make this post.

    Thanks in advance everyone!

    Thanks everyone!
     
  2. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Call or chat with the Power Commander folks either via the software or call them. They have great support during business hours.
    Do NOT let them update the firmware as noted on the Notes section of the map. This will cause running issues.
     
  3. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Thanks Todd. I appreciate your insights, always. You provide great products and service.

    So. there is one more revelation after riding the bike yesterday and getting the map. The Trim Table has no values in any cell? The Auto Tune Trouble Shooting Section at PC states that this condition indicates that the Auto Tune isn't functioning. When I contact the PC people, I am sure they will see this issue.
     
  4. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Good day everyone! I had plans for a great early fall run through BC, Alberta, Montana, Idaho, Hells Canyon in Oregon and Washington State, ending up at a Greta Van Fleet Concert in Seattle for next week, but as I remember one poster saying, Trouble runs in packs! So, it will be a next year plan!

    Well, some more insights into the lean running condition. I talked with Chad at Techno Research and he was kind enough to assist me in getting my 'Legacy' Centurion Flash Tuner software downloaded to my laptop.

    The bike has a PCV, AT 200 Autotune, Todd's slip on muffler, Aluminum Air Box conversion and some other suspension stuff done so it has been a fun bike for sure. As you guys might remember, I had the Alternator/Rectifier issue last year and maybe some of these issues are a result of that episode?

    So, the Tool reveals the following codes and descriptions which seem consistent with the bikes current running condition. Following the order of the diagnostic tool, here goes. The image is attached.

    P0110 Air Temperature Sensor. If the air temperature sensor has failed, I understand it will have a significant impact on the fuel/air delivery at various operating and ambient temperatures? Can it be tested?

    P0560 The battery voltage is likely reading low because the key is on for a few minutes while the test is being ran. It is a new battery with no issues this year.

    P0201/P0202 Injector 1 and 2 No Load. It appears that the Fuel Pump was intermittent in operation. I cleaned the terminals for the Main and Auxiliary Injector Relays, as they are on the current supply side of the Fuel Pump. It seems the pump is consistently operating now (in the shop)? I replaced both injectors last year after one failed. They have about 7K on them? I checked the voltage to the injectors when starting and it is about 9.6V on each side and with the key is on it is about 1.8V.

    P0351 No 1 Coil. The misfire that the bike has seems to be a spark issue. It overcomes the stuttering as RPM is increased. It is the worst at around 5000 RPM. The misfire has gotten worse over the past few weeks. Can a coil be accurately tested? Can I use the Centurion to check it further? Should I just replace them both?

    P02030 Pre-Supply Pump Power Stage? Is this the Stepper Motor? It is the original.

    P0170 Starter-Works fine as I did the 'starter fix' 4 or 5 years ago.

    I am looking forward to your great insights and thanks in advance.
     

    Attached Files:

  5. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Regular centurion can read the air temp sensor. Be advised your bike has two, one for the dash and one at the air intake for the engine. You need to check the one for the air intake. The P8 manual provides the ohm reading for the sensor if you want to check it manually. That said, the engine temp sensor reading seems to be more critical to engine fueling. If you have a fault on one coil, I'd go ahead and replace both. The parts and service manuals don't identify coils by number so you would have a 50/50 chance on getting the correct one. I'd go after the air sensor and coils first. If she doesn't run well after verifying/replacing then continue with the other errors.
     
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  6. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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  7. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hi John!

    Thanks for your response to my situation and for your insights into testing and parts. Forgive my idiocy, what is the P8 Manual?
     
  8. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    I found the specification in the manual for the Temperature Sensor to be at 3.75 kOhm at 20C. Mine is at 3.02 kOhm @ 22C. I was initially unsure what the difference would mean in functionality, other than not being at spec, but now see that the lower resistance could be causing the sensor to indicate a higher temperature and this may be multiplied as temperature increases?
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2018
  9. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Usually a variance of 10% is considered normal. You may be just a little over the 10% but it is hard to judge. A new sensor may not be any more accurate. Since the sensor may be OK, I would concentrate on the coils.
     
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  10. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Thanks John. Yes, I will follow your advice. As you likely know, Western Canada is mostly a wasteland when it comes Guzzi, so I've ordered the parts out of the US.
    Cheers
     
  11. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hi John and all! I finally got home after a great weekend in Seattle, and a week of work in Vancouver. The only disappointing thing there was, well actually 2 things were; I didn't ride there, and the Greta Van Fleet concert was cancelled!

    I ordered and received 2 coils and the air temperature sensor from AF1.

    I tested the old coils and found both primaries to be at .6 Ohm resistance, with spec at .9-1.1. Both secondaries tested at 7.21 KOhm resistance.

    I got the new sensor and coils installed and ran the bike in the garage. It doesn't have a miss anymore, so now reassembly and a ride and a new diagnostic tomorrow! I'll post on the results!
     
  12. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    I have finally got the Norge running smoothly, although it is not the beautifully rich running bike it was prior to the extensive issues that I have had with it since or as a result of the Alternator/Rectifier failure last year. It has been a somewhat disappointing run of issues....

    This years work includes replacing;
    • Auto Tune unit
    • O2 Sensor
    • both coils
    • the Air Temperature Sensor
    • Timing Chain
    • all spark plugs
    Last night after installing the new coils and air temperature sensor, I ran the bike, and tested the systems using the Centurion Tool. The test results were Pass. I also pulled the outer plugs and I was ecstatic to see that they were rich looking!

    After a 30 KM ride today through all RPM ranges, the bikes running state steadily improved as I rode it through all RPM ranges at most speeds. I pulled the map which I have sent to Todd, and I am pleased that there are some trim values in the trim table, which previously there weren't.

    I once again tested the bike using the Centurion and all systems were pass. Upon pulling the plugs, they are definitely leaner than they were over the past years of operation.

    At this point I am completely disappointed, but as I love this bike I am willing to carry on with the work.

    Is it possible that the fuel pump is not functioning at higher RPM? I will load the map that Todd sends me back, ride the bike again and wait for the great insights that everyone has. Thank you and have a great weekend!
     
  13. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hey everyone! So, I loaded the Map that Todd sent me and took the bike on a 100 KM ride through a variety of riding conditions and speeds. I accepted the trims and sent the map back to Todd for his expert review. The bike is running pretty nicely I must say.
    I know I am hypersensitive after the breakdown last year and I am hopeful that everything is OK now. I know I have stated that the bike previously ran slightly rich and I would still prefer that condition to the current plug condition of somewhat lean in appearance.

    I have attached the images of a previous plug (replaced last spring) and a current plug from cylinder 1 (replaced 200 KM ago).
    IMG_20180916_152158.jpg IMG_20180916_152228.jpg
    You can see that the one plug has a nice rich black condition, which for me seems better as the bike would run slightly cooler in a slightly rich state. Anyway, my question still remains. Is there a resistance spec for the fuel pump? I am wondering if the fuel pump is not functioning properly at higher RPM? Anyway, I hope everyone has a great week!
     
  14. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    All black is way too rich. The leaner plug looks perfect to me.
     
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  15. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Thanks as always John, your insights are very appreciated! Any thoughts on the fuel pump test?
    Have a great week?
     
  16. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    The fuel system pressure should be about 3 bar. The problem is there isn't a good place on the system to put a gauge without cutting of fuel lines. I've not seen pressure issues on these bikes, but that doesn't mean there can't be. So long as the fuel filter is in good condition, you should have adequate pressure.
     
  17. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hi John. Yes, that would be aaproblem for sure.
    All the best. Thanks.
     
  18. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Good day everyone in Guzzi land. Well, I am back to last years running condition of a somewhat serious miss throughout all RPM ranges. When at idle, the bike is running like it did previously, but when riding, upon increasing throttle, it feels like it has a flat spot, and is trying to catch up to the increasing RPM. This seems to be the same issue I had last year after the charging system repair.

    Today's testing included testing the plug leads for arcing. which I didn't see any of on any of the plugs or wires. I devised a brace so I could run the bike with the tank lifted but not removed. I removed the outer plug wires (easy) and tested them. Each has 4,8 KOhm resistance. I haven't been able to locate a spec but I thought I had seen one somewhere?

    I also removed each Fuel Injection Nozzle individually and each Nozzle dispensed fuel, but only a what appears to be a minute amount (maybe a tablespoon) after 20 seconds for each cylinder. John previously provided the spec for the fuel pump, but the inability to test because of the single piece fuel line.

    I saw a great post earlier with a video clip of the single cylinder running 650 so I thought I could do the same. Regrettably there is some error preventing me from uploading the sound clip.

    Thanks for checking out my post. Cheers.
     
  19. Bigbear

    Bigbear Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    I have an 1100 Sport carburettor that runs great & can average about 45mpg on a long cruise even if running in 4th gear at 70mph - however when I pull the plugs - both of them have one side of the porcelain brown & clean while the other side of the porcelain is black (rich).
    This is evident even if the accelerator pumps are disconnected (as purchased but changed & rejetted).
    Would this indicate poor through head combustion flow - the bike has the restrictive USA mufflers & is very quiet.?
     
  20. WindwardWarrior

    WindwardWarrior Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hi Big Bear. Thanks for the inquiry into the Norge! My post on Ask the Mechanic has the bike running great now.
    I put about 250 KM on it on the last ride of the year.
    The final problem turned out too be the RPM/CPK phase sensor. The bike now has great looking plugs with a slightly brown colour on the porcelain and a clean looking tip.
    The history is a series of catastrophic failures that seemed to stem from a fried rectifier. The burned wire repair revealed failed Coil(s), failed ABS and eventually the RPM sensor.
    So, only the ABS system to rectify now!
    Cheers
     

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