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lubricant specifications

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Chat & Tech' started by yukonica, Apr 26, 2014.

  1. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    Living in the subarctic has its own difficulties. For example: I live near a community of 28,000 people. Next nearest city is 1000 km away in an different country. As I'm preparing for the first service of my bike I can't find the 10w60 oil specified in the manual. I had a choice between 20w50 or 5w50. Both full synthetics. I chose the 20 weight.
    How far out of spec are these options? Am I going to hurt my motor?
    My options are: don't ride. (not). Use what I have. Or wait until late May by the time the correct product can be shipped up.
    Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
    Thanks.
    Don.
     
  2. Fiat500

    Fiat500 Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Hi Don,
    I am no expert but I think the 5w50 would be the one I would be going for especially if it is cold up your way as it flows a lot quicker on start-up.
    The old spec for the small block was 5w40 so unless someone wiser than me can see a problem then I cant see any reason why you could not stay with 5w50 if the 10w60 is hard to obtain.

    Cheers,
    Steve.
     
  3. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    Thanks Steve, I was quite torn in my guesswork. My only 'hint' was a local bike shop uses the 20 weight with additives to assist wet clutches according to their parts guy. He also said automotive synth was a little over half the price.
    As for climate; summer temps are surprisingly warm: 20-25C... they just don't stick around very long. :)
    Don.
     
  4. M0T0Geezer

    M0T0Geezer Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Like Fiat500 said, 5-40 was originally specified for the 750cc motor. In your very cold climate I wouldn't even think of putting 20-anything in my engine.

    You mentioned "My only hint was a local bike shop uses the 20 weight with additives to assist wet clutches according to their parts guy."

    Your Guzzi 750 has a dry (automotive-type) clutch so don't worry about what the wet clutch crowd is doing.

    The fast pump-ability of 5-40 wt when cold is the best weapon against wear at startup, the worst 20 seconds your engine will ever have each day.

    I have always used the 5-40 wt Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic in my 2004 Breva 750cc. It now has about 22,000 miles on the motor and only needs a top off once between 4,000 mile change intervals. I live in Colorado USA and use the same oil both winter and summer, when temps can exceed 100 degrees F.

    When I say always I mean it. The same 5-40 wt oil went in my ST1100, GL1800, ST1300, and three mega scooters (250cc, 600cc, & 400cc). All thrived on it and none ever burned oil. Your results may vary.

    'Geezer
     
  5. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    Two for two on the 5weight. Thanks Geezer.
    BTW what do you folks define as very cold?
    :)
    Again, Thanks.
    Don.
     
  6. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Be advised that motorcycle tires don't stick well at cold temperatures. I was at a tire seminar some years back put on by Bridgestone. Optimal traction is when the core of the tire is at 100 C (but they wear faster) however as the temperature goes down, so does traction. By about -3 C (27 F) you are at the point where just about all the stick is gone. So, be careful out there.
     
  7. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    Hi John, thanks for the kind advice. Traction is an interesting discussion... so many variables. Compound,surface structure, surface condition, ambient temperature, solar gain, tread design, volume of traffic, humidity.... all kinds of stuff.
    I'm comfortable down to about -10C. After that I'd need to put on gloves ;)
    My reality is the roads here are mostly chip-seal... kind of a wannabe asphalt. Large granular structure that eats soft tires but grips like reverse knobbies. Not really concerned about roadway oil because traffic levels are so small you'd never believe me if I described it.
    Perspective: Alabama has 4.8 million people and an area of about 136,000 sq. km. Yukon has 36,000 people (not a typo) and 483,000 sq. km. I live in serengeti north. Game on the road is a far greater concern than stiction.
    But, I'll take comfort in good folks offering good advice. Come on up: the scenery is wild :lol:
    Cheers, and thanks.
    Don.
     
    feliz likes this.
  8. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Just an example, when I was living in Kentucky, I was riding to a club breakfast at about 20 degrees F. Taking an easy corner, back tire lost traction. Two plates and 23 screws later my ankle was re-assembled. This occurred before I attended that seminar. Now I know better.
     
  9. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    John, I understand we all hit the ground sooner or later. Sorry for your pain. Glad you didn't quit riding.
    I know several people who blame their misfortune on motorcycles rather than choices and circumstance then gave up a passion. Me? I've low sided at 180km and high sided at well over 100 km. Both, looking back, were the result of choices I made. I try to avoid those kind of decisions these days.
    Which is part of the reason I chose a V7 rather than an FZ-09 or something else equally ugly and wheelie prone.
    My brother gave me my first riding lesson for my seventh birthday. It was on his Honda 50 light. The Beatles were storming North America. My ass has been parked on bike seats for 51 of my 58 years. I get it....
    Don.
     
  10. Android

    Android Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Famiglia

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    [​IMG]

    Engine oil
    A good quality engine oil has special properties. Use only a highly detergent engine oil with certified SE, SF or SG or higher service ratings as marked on the container.

    The other viscosity grades specified in the table can be used where the average ambient temperatures are within the limits shown.

    Thought this may help to graphically explain the temerature ranges of oil grades and help you understand how to choose based on your environment (taken from the Ducati Multistrada 1100 manual)
     
  11. Kev M

    Kev M Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    WHY would you assume an oil selection chart from another brand and model applies to a V7?

    Also, the API classifications you list, with regards to many of the lighter oils on your chart, are NOT equivalent to the motorcycle specific oil recommended by Guzzi which contains much higher levels of ZDDP which have been eliminated from automotive oils for concerns about eventual cat-con damage.
     
  12. M0T0Geezer

    M0T0Geezer Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Just a simple question:

    Has anyone here personally experienced engine damage or failure due to using the "wrong" oil in their Moto Guzzi?

    By personally I mean you and your bike(s) only.
    By wrong I mean not the precise brand or weight specified by Guzzi.

    "Wrong" would however include any non-spec motor oil of reasonable quality and weight appropriate for conditions.

    So if "bad" oil has victimized your Guzzi. please share the details of the repairs required.

    'Geezer

    [​IMG]
     
  13. yukonica

    yukonica Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    In my case; nothing so far but I only have 1500km on the bike. Circumstances here are anything to do with this marque is going to be a chore to acquire. I had to settle for 5W50 for the engine, 75-90 and 75-140 for the other two lubricants. So I'm not at spec on any level. Went to buy a spare set of plugs for a travel kit.... had to order then in from the south.
     
  14. Kev M

    Kev M Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Nothing personal - but WTF does that have to do with justifying people giving advice to ignore the manufacturer's specifications???

    I haven't personally had lung cancer either, but I can in good faith suggest people avoid smoking because of it.

    The problem with ignoring the OEM recommendations about something like this is simple, the person giving the advice almost certainly hasn't put hundreds of thousands of miles on the same year/make/model before making said recommendation. And shy of that how can they have any real idea if their advice would put the person listening to them at greater risk for mechanical wear or failure?

    Now I'm not suggesting that you can't use a different brand, or possibly even a different grade oil.

    Just don't TELL OTHER PEOPLE IT IS FINE if you don't have the data to back it up.


    Yukonica - your circumstances are unique. Anyone in say the lower 48 of the US can EASILY find synthetic 10-60 engine oil (either by mail or by various automotive outlets like BMW dealers or NAPA). It's not a chore.
     
  15. bdcfe

    bdcfe Tuned and Synch'ed

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  16. Android

    Android Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Famiglia

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    sorry I have no certificates(qualifications) regards motor oil.......
    My Multistrada has done over 112,000 miles in the 5 years of my ownership on car oil and car (Fram,Mahle,Wix) oil filters is still going strong and has never been rebuilt .....the honing marks are still visible in the bores after all this time and is regularily thrashed to the red line.
    I have used 0-30 mobil 1, 10-30 Comma 10-40 all fuly synthetic, oil and filter changed every 6000miles and to top it all the Ducati runs the same oil through the gearbox so the oil works extra hard and all that complicated desmodromic valve gear (re shim every 12,000) ......never seen a dealer.... all my own handiwork.

    My "Oil Knowledge " came from a very helpful article .....Motor Oil for Dummies......you might know it

    http://wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=42955.0

    have a read and then come back.....love to hear your views on it

    The OP has the problem of low ambient temp where a thinner oil will benifit easy starting and more rapid circulation of the life blood of the engine.
     
  17. Kev M

    Kev M Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Well, FWIW, I'm NOT saying you shouldn't suggest alternatives.

    But, a Duc is not a Goose.

    And shy of more analysis, I'll trust their respective engineers and their recommendations unless given compelling evidence to doubt them.

    I've corresponded with an oil engineer who works for M1 and owns a Ducati, and based on HIS recommendations have used their 10-40 instead of 20-50 but both are on their recommendation chart.

    Also FWIW the Guzzi recommendation of 10-60 is hardly very thick for winter startup. I've never had a problem with starting a Goose, BMW, or Harley in freezing temps, AND I've never read a chart from those manufacturers who suggested a lower weight was NECESSARY (even if some ALLOWED a lighter weight for winter startups).

    As for that thread, I've got three replies in it from 2011.
     
  18. Android

    Android Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Famiglia

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    and I strip, inspect and rebuild jet engines (GE CF700 2D2) all day long.

    now we have the willy measuring out of the way

    Both are twin cylinder 2valve head, air cooled motors, both have shell big ends and ball races on the crankshaft, both have dry clutches, both run valve guides of ali-bronze, use screw on cartidge oil filters with a paper element.
    2 wheels, a pair of forks, front and back brakes. blah blah blah ...............no not similar at all :lol:

    Lets get back to Don's question .............

    Yukonica was asking ....given his location and consitantly low temps, was his choice the right one ......I am just confirming that Fiat500's advice was good in going for the 5-50w out of the two choices he had.
    the chart shows the temperature ranges of generic multigrade oils not anythig specific.


     
  19. Kev M

    Kev M Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Not going to get into a pissing or wi-measuring contest (but for the record I've been an ASE cert tech and tech writer in the car, bike, and boat motor industry for more than two decades).

    Yes, there are similarities between Duc and Goose. But you're still making assumptions.

    What model year and emissions homologation are we talking about?

    What are the average operating conditions, rpm, temperature, etc.

    How about the specific metallurgy of the chosen bearings and valve train components?

    And speaking of valve trains they are pretty different.

    Parameters for the oil pump and lubrication system?

    And fyi, no screw on cartridge oil filter for a V7.

    I just don't like ASSUMPTIONS and simply posting a chart from another brand suggesting applicability makes too many.

    And I personally still don't think a case has been made to assert it as fact.

    I have no problem with someone presenting it if qualified "for consideration" as a comparison.

    Maybe it's a subtle difference, but in my particular branch of this profession (publishing this repair data and dealing with the public) I've learned to be cautious in how something is presented because how quickly the public can and will misinterpret it.
     
  20. Kev M

    Kev M Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    PS:

    As for the OP's question he's not told us what the average or extreme temps he expects in the next month or so.

    I'd sure like to hear that before I suggest which oil he use.

    Personally I would have obtained the spec'd oil months in advance rather than make that choice.
     

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