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Measuring Throttle Plate Angle

JasonC

Cruisin' Guzzisti
GT Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2021
Messages
374
Location
Katy, Texas
Is there a way to measure the left-hand throttle plate angle on a 2010 V7 Cafe to ensure the sacred screw has not been tampered with?

I purchased my bike second-hand and there were numerous modifications made at the expense of the original owner, hence my wanting to check throttle plate angle. I've read that some MGs should have a throttle plate angle of 4.5 to 4.9 degrees. I'm not sure if this specification applies to a 2010 V7 Cafe and if not, what it the correct angle? Also, I'm wondering if a template could be made from, say, thin cardboard or aluminum sheet and simply inserted into the throttle body to check the throttle plate angle? Or is there a way that it can be checked electronically?

Thanks!

Jason
 
Is there a way to measure the left-hand throttle plate angle on a 2010 V7 Cafe to ensure the sacred screw has not been tampered with?

I purchased my bike second-hand and there were numerous modifications made at the expense of the original owner, hence my wanting to check throttle plate angle. I've read that some MGs should have a throttle plate angle of 4.5 to 4.9 degrees. I'm not sure if this specification applies to a 2010 V7 Cafe and if not, what it the correct angle? Also, I'm wondering if a template could be made from, say, thin cardboard or aluminum sheet and simply inserted into the throttle body to check the throttle plate angle? Or is there a way that it can be checked electronically?

Thanks!

Jason
As far as I know that can only be set at the factory with special equipment. A quick check is to look at the torque paint on the end of the screw. If the paint is still there you are OK, if not, start shopping for replacement throttle bodies. On the bikes that use the 15M or P8 ECUs there is a procedure to restore the correct angle, but not with the ECU used on other bikes.
 
Thank you for the reply, John.

The yellow paint looked a bit suspect to me, hence my original query. But the engine/motor idles at a steady 1,100 RPM. What are the symptoms of throttle plates that are out of adjustment?

Jason
 
Jason, If you look in the Stelvio section I think there is a thread where someone made a gauge for his TB. Pretty interesting read, did the exact thing you are thinking about doing.
To find out where yours is though you need to be hooked up w/software. Todd may have a download tool for your bike, cheapest way going. TechnoResearch makes software tools that Todd used to sell in the store.
I bought my own from them when I needed it in 07 for work.
Do a search, you'll find what you need.
 
Thanks Steve; I'll check out the Stelvio section for throttle plate angle measurement tool.

Jason
 
This same topic comes up every year at a minimum.

The answer never changes. It is a resounding NO.

The post Steve references was written by a guy who happened to get very lucky and got “approximately” close but not ACCURATE based upon nothing but his anecdotal account of how the motorcycle ran!

The throttle body is set on a very sophisticated air flow bench based upon several bench configurable factors. These test benches are very expensive precision machines with various settings and readings that simply cannot be duplicated by cardboard or mechanical measurements and one cannot build and calibrate a flowbench in their garage. Many have tried.

Under the yellow paint, is usually melted solder as well. If the solder is still in place on your throttlebody, then don’t worry about it.

An obvious real world example is gleaned from the decades of carburetor work I do.

I rebuild carburetors WEEKLY at my shop and I do dozens upon dozens a year. Many, are Japanese dual and quad carburetor setups.

In a quad carburetor rebuild and setup, after complete disassembly, rebuilding and reassembly, I use machinist gauge precision measuring wire to initially set the angle of the butterfly valves to be the same across the carburetors.

I assure you every single opening is exactly the same distance in the 4 carburetors when I get done with my initial setup. It’s good enough to get the motorcycle to start, idle, and even run halfway decent. However..,

I then hook up my manometer to the carburetors, start the engine, get her up to temperature and low and behold, what does my manometer tell me? It SHOWS ME that the levels of manifold vacuum through each carburetor is DIFFERENT and that by only careful adjustments either opening more or closing some on each individual carburetor, am I able to eventually bring them into alignment both at idle and at running speeds.

Also not unexpected, I rebuild many of the exact same multi carburetor setups.

No two setups are ever the same in configuration and setup. Never. Even when they are identical in components.

Each is unique and individually calibrated with a manometer in order to get the motorcycle to run properly.

Bottom line is, air flow is a million miles away from physical measurements of butterfly angle measurement. A million miles away…

Technoresearch has not made anything for Moto Guzzi for at least 5 years if not longer.

I have all of their professional shop equipment (Socio 300 Italian made FI diagnostic system) as well as a Centurion and Alaris setup for several of my individual motorcycles.

People at other forums, lied to many others and convinced them that GuzziDiag could allow them to do the same thing as Technoresearch’s commercially supported products for Moto Guzzi.

Unfortunately, this was a lie and it didn’t work as claimed, but it was enough to make the economic return for their work, so unprofitable, that the Italian (Sandro Scaccia) that owns Technoresearch, pulled out of all other brands except Harley Davidson entirely.

Hence, he only deals in Harley Davidson FI equipment nowadays.

Bottom line JasonC, is that what you are proposing to do is doomed to failure because what you think you can do has no bearing to the realities of the real world engineering physics actually going on in the background.

Many have tried before you. It simply cannot be done like you think. Sorry.
 
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Hello Scott and thank you for ringing in on this topic.

I too have initially balanced carburetors using a drill rod to ensure the same slide height for each carburetor. I would then start the engine and find that with my vacuum gauge connected to all the carburetors the balance would need tweaking--but it was close. And the variation in vacuum could be attributable to variations in the piston rings, valves, etc. But I understand your point.

So I assume there is no way of determining if my throttle plates have been misadjusted without hooking the throttle body up to a flow bench or looking at the paint/solder on the adjustment screw?

Jason
 
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Not "slide height". Butterfly valve opening. Slides are maintained in position by compression springs.

Yes, that is what I said previously. Even having access to a flow bench is virtually useless as Moto Guzzi does not publish any of the data for this procedure.

Why do you think that it has been messed with is the real question?

Most running issues I have seen are due to adjustments being made to the throttle body without doing a proper TPS reset. If you cannot perform a TPS reset, then you should never change the adjustment on the throttle body otherwise you will knock the alignment of the physical conditions out of alignment with the logical conditions stored in the ECU.

 
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Not "slide height". Butterfly valve opening. Slides are maintained in position by compression springs.

Why do you think that it has been messed with is the real question?
Scott,

Thank you for the additional information.

Please note that the orifices created by multi-slide-carburetors must be adjusted just like butterfly carbs in order to "balance" them; I'm not referring to CV carburetors. AMAL carburetors on old British tripples and twins for instance and Miklunis on the older Kawasaki 900s and 1000s must have their slide heights adjusted.

The dab of paint on the sacred screw looks suspiciously cracked to me so I wanted to find a way to verify the correct throttle plate angle. Hell, I don't even know what the angle should be? Also I have a 15RC ECU and so I can't even check the TPS with a Guzi Tech tool. There too many things that I can't verify on this bike and it bugs me.

Jason
 
Scott,

Thank you for the additional information.

Please note that the orifices created by multi-slide-carburetors must be adjusted just like butterfly carbs in order to "balance" them; I'm not referring to CV carburetors. AMAL carburetors on old British tripples and twins for instance and Miklunis on the older Kawasaki 900s and 1000s must have their slide heights adjusted.

The dab of paint on the sacred screw looks suspiciously cracked to me so I wanted to find a way to verify the correct throttle plate angle. Hell, I don't even know what the angle should be? Also I have a 15RC ECU and so I can't even check the TPS with a Guzi Tech tool. There too many things that I can't verify on this bike and it bugs me.

Jason
The 15RC can be checked with the Techno Research software. You will need to find someone with the European Pro version. Once you locate someone with the software familiarize yourself with this thread. https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/discontinued-alaris-centurion-vdsts-info-instructions.1676/ As to verifying the throttle plate angle, give that up. It isn't going to happen. If the bike runs well just ride it. You are close to Houston, check with MPH to see if they can help you.
 
The 15RC can be checked with the Techno Research software. You will need to find someone with the European Pro version. Once you locate someone with the software familiarize yourself with this thread. https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/discontinued-alaris-centurion-vdsts-info-instructions.1676/ As to verifying the throttle plate angle, give that up. It isn't going to happen. If the bike runs well just ride it. You are close to Houston, check with MPH to see if they can help you.
John,

Thank you for the reminder about Mike Haven and about Techno Research software!

Yes, the bike runs well and accelerates like nothing I've ever ridden before! I just like to learn as much about it as I can, hence all my seemingly bizarre queries.

Jason
 
John,

Thank you for the reminder about Mike Haven and about Techno Research software!

Yes, the bike runs well and accelerates like nothing I've ever ridden before! I just like to learn as much about it as I can, hence all my seemingly bizarre queries.

Jason

So it runs well. Remember the enemy of good is better!! That is trying to get it better may actually make things worse.
 
Moto Guzzi Rules

1. If is isn’t broken, it isn’t broken. Don’t mess with it.

2. Nothing on a Moto Guzzi requires great force to be applied to it in order to fix it. Less is more.

3. Moto Guzzi motorcycles are meant to be ridden. Nothing destroys them faster than being left to languish, unridden.
 
When I bought my Breva1100 it came with a messed with throttle stop screw before I knew such a thing was an issue

However it was perfectly clear as the paint was missing and any solder as described by Scott had been removed as you can't adjust the screw otherwise

If your concern is based solely on the cracked paint, it might be worth having a look elsewhere on both the 2 throttle bodies to see if there is any paint still that that was obviously applied in the factory by the bloke that built them and match the colours.

It's highly unlikely that any new paint applied by somebody fiddling about would match the 11 year old paint applied initially
 
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