Memjet Module

[guzziben47]

I notice there is a company called Memjet that is making an adjustible performance module for the Stelvio. I'm sure it's not as good as the Power Commander, but it looks like a possible less expensive alternative. Has anyone ever tried one?

 

[kmartin]

If this is the device that fools the temperature sensor, then the Piaggio service rep had one on the Griso demo at John Day. The bike ran great with that and a Termignoni exhaust. He tried to tell me that it's a cheaper, simpler, way to adjust fueling. It did work well on the demo bike, but I haven't ridden a stock one to compare.

 

[GTM®]

Ben, there's a couple "band-aid" options out there that you can waste $100 on. It will run different, just not much better. You get what you pay for (sorry). :whistle:

Keith, that's quite surprising that the Piaggio Tech guys knowingly admitted running something like that on demos... though I have to commend them for acknowledging that they still run poorly, even with the map "updates."

 

[kmartin]

He was quick to pull the seat and show it to me. I think it was after he knew Ray and I had your setup on our Stelvios. But you know what happend with Ray. I hope he's got things back together, the map update pretty much ruined his weekend.

 

[Penis Rotor]

I'm assuming that the demo bikes were 2010 models and if that is the case there should of been no need for any sort of ECU fooler to get them to run satisfactorily. All the 2010 models, to the best of my knowledge, are using the A8 motor which seems to run pretty nicely as delivered. Not suggesting that it can't be improved upon, simply that if they are set up right they run nicely. Bit of a sad indictment if the importer can't get the wee bugger to run right....

Pete

 

[guzzi jon]

I will be installing todd's full setup on my G11 shortly, then sacrifice my fatduc in some form of voodoo ceremony

 

[Mi_ka]

These "low tech" solutions are not good enough and eventually you are paying more in fuel as, in order to have no lean areas, you are getting too rich in other places of the map. And who knows what happens on a much colder day...

Even if you do not want to go the experienced "plug and play" way Todd offers and prefer to do your own map on some PC type accessory, go for the proper expensive devices.
Chances are you will finally be paying more than Todd's solutions except if you have a (very) friendly dynamometer that will not charge the man hours needed to produce a proper map and recheck it in different climate conditions...

 

[guzziben47]

I'm sure the Power Commander is better. I'm just thinking I may not need everything it has to offer. I'm happy with the power the bike has, and I can live with the dip in the curve. All I really want is the bike to run smoother. Also, I'd like something that is easy to install, and is removable if it doesn't work out. I'll probably save up for the PCV; I just like to know what else is out there....

 

[Mi_ka]

For what it is worth, I am tech supporting a competing firm to DJ in the dyno section and I am a DJ products skeptic (ok, mostly due to personal bias :roll: ) .
So when I tell you to go Todd's way, it is not because I have anything pro to this solution except plain simple honesty.

If you go the cheap way, you can make the bike run better (not too lean after less restrictive breathing in-out) but you are not altering the map - just putting an offset to the "point normal". So the map will still be a mess, just not too lean.
If you can live with that then no problem but you can never know what really happens in your engine.
If you do heavy mileage, then chances are that you will be paying the difference in gas and still have no proper mapping...

 

[guzziben47]

If what you say is true, then that's pretty disconcerting for anyone who owns a Guzzi. If the manufacturer is so incompetent they are shipping these bikes with feul mapping that is a "mess," then that doesn't imply anything positive about the rest of the bike. I'm sure the guy programming the PC-V is a smart, capable guy, but if he is that much better than the engineers at the second oldest motorcycle manufacturer in the world, that suggests Moto Guzzi has some serious problems. And it's only rational to infer those problems extend beyond the fuel mapping.

Mayble I'm deluding myself, but at least for the time being, I prefer to think the problem is just the restrictive EPA requirements in the US. MG is forced to import this bike running way too lean, and with way too many other environmental add-ons. If you richen up the mixture and remove some of the add-ons, you'll have a great bike.

Call it blind faith but I'm hoping that's true!!!

 

[Mi_ka]

Well, I may have been too graphic.
Nevertheless, its your money. bike and decision.
I wish I was in your shoes - Seems like no Griso for me any time soon...

 

[GTM®]

Ben, Guzzis are still over-built, under-stressed marvels... However they're dealing with a big air-cooled twin with Euro3 emissions requirements, hence restrictive intake/exhaust/sound and fueling requirements. The fuel mapping is quite crude, as it is with every manufacturer. I suspect budget constraints and global fueling is a tough one to tackle. Feel lucky that there are effective solutions. It may not be cheap, but neither are the bikes. One look at the air/fuel data, and I'd be willing to invest in not allowing my motor to melt down... which I did of course. I invested to the tune of nearly a Stelvio to offer the solution to the miniscule community here. I take advantage of every opportunity to purchase items that make my bike work better to those who invest time in this marque.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Ben, Guzzis are still over-built, under-stressed marvels... However they're dealing with a big air-cooled twin with Euro3 emissions requirements, hence restrictive intake/exhaust/sound and fueling requirements.

Actually Todd it's a big liquid cooled twin with air assist. Really. The amount of cooling air does directly to the heads on the 8V is really quite small. Also whilst Euro 3 and beyond emmissions are hard to beat with this sort of engine, more because of noise than anything else this has actually been tackled reasonably well by the factory. It is VERY important to remember that one has to look at the entire motor from air intake to exhaust exit hollistically. Relying on one data point to set fuelling is fraught with problems.

Quite simply I don't think that the WBO sensor has the sensitivity to accurately detect what is happening in the combustion chamber. Also any of the sniffers I've seen and used on dynos may well give false or inadequate readings that do not reflect what is actually happening INSIDE the engine.

As I've stated before you simply CAN'T use 'Old School' tuning techniques on newer motors, (not just the Guzzi 8-V. Virtually anything designed for the modern world is the same.). That is why so many of the newer vehicles on the road have design features in their motors that people are baffled by and think are there simply retrogressive sops to ever more draconian emissions demands when in fact they are rather more cleverly thought out ways of getting around problems by exploiting the new 'Limitations'.

I know that reading AFR charts and looking at dyno curves will tell you that most of the new bikes have places where they run horribly lean, I believe you've said you had detected figures as high as 18/1 in places. OK but if that was the case with ten or eleven to one compression ratios and the crappy fuel we now have, even with a well designed and modern combustion chamber like that of the 8V you WOULD have detonation and you WOULD see evidence on the plugs of an extremely lean mixture. The thing is you don't! I've done numerous plug chops now at all sorts of engine speeds and loadings and you know what? The results mimick the torque curve of the dyno runs I've pulled. Where that midrnge dip is? Yup, it leans out a bit, but not absurdly, and the spark advance similarly reflects most 'Modern' machines advancing sort of smoothly all the way to the top of the rev range and then retarding a bit. Why do that? To protect us from the staggering 120 odd HP the motor produces at the crank? I don't think so. My guess is because that is what has been found to work best when working within the constraints of current laws when you are building a product hollistically.

I'm not saying that the PCV-AT won't work. I'm sure it will, and does. But I'm also convinced that there are many more factors to be looked at, many of them physical factors such as the restrictiveness or otherwise of both the inlet and exhaust tracts, the combustion chamber design and the cam timing and lift that mean that simply looking for good AFR figures with an O2 sensor midway down the exhaust tract is fraught with danger.

A motor is simply a self propelling air pump, the old adage used to be 'More in-More out'. This will still hold true as long as the 'More' that is going in is staying in the cylinder. The thing is that with modern cam profiling and head design if you open up the inlet and exhaust too much a lot of the 'More' that goes past the inlet valve will go straight back out again via the exhaust valves on over-lap resulting in poorer cylinder fill AND, very importantly a false reading being taken by the O2 sensor an fed to the ECU. Unless you build in some sort of bias to take that into account when programming the ECU you are NEVER going to get the fuelling right and given the number of people who are finding that their bikes guzzle fuel AND foul plugs after using the AT and accepting the trims my guess is that this might very well be the cause.

I know it's your baby. I actually know little of how it actually 'Works' beyond the obvious and am more than willing to deffer to your expertise in this area but I have been working on 4 cycle internal combustion engines for a very, very long time now and while there are sometimes the most appaling and astonishing cock-ups made in factory designs more and more you will find that if a manufacturer does something, (Even a small unit designed/produced product like Guzzi.) there is usually a good reason for it. Going hell-for-leather for the easisest 'Old Fashioned' sollution will not always yeild the best results. Having ridden Andrew's 'Fully Equipped' machine I have not a shadow of a doubt that the improvements available from the PCV-AT are astonishing! That bike goes like a Rhino with a spear up its chuff! My guess though is that to really get the MOST out of the system, especially on an 8V motor, you're going to have to think more 'outside the square' and treat the data you are getting as plastic and 'Fuzzy' if you wish and rely on feel and intuition a lot more.

You have the skills and experience. Use them. an awful lot of tuning is mind over matter, or, if you prefer, Heart over Head!!!!!!!

Pete

 

[guzziben47]

This thread is starting to remind me of a dealer we had in Beverly Massachusetts called "Freeman's BMW." They are out of business now. But in the old days they would try to sell you a BMW by telling you how well made and reliable the bikes were. But then the salesman would also say (out of the other side of his mouth) that the bike wouldn't run well unless you bought it from Freemans (not any other BMW dealer) and had them "Freemanize" it. (i.e. fix it so it would run half way decent). And I always thought there was an inherent contradiction there.

I don't want to completely rebuild the Stelvio. I have the tools to do my own maintenance, so I'll make sure the valves clearances are o.k., sync the throttle bodies as best I can, and reset the tps. I've already gotten rid of the evap can. Now I just need a seat pad so I can stand being on the bike for long periods of time. And then I'm going to put some miles on her and see if she smoothes out a little (or I get used to her the way she is). If she does, she's a keeper; if she doesn't, you'll see her on Ebay.

Peace.

 

[Mi_ka]

Hmmm, valve overlap messing the AFR readings, never thought of that.

A way to make maps not based on AFR readings would be tweaking the AFR while the bike is steadily struggling on a brake dyno until you get maximum power, quickly enough to avoid overheating of the fuel tank and other parts as usually the total supplied air cooling is not enough. Keeping it safe looking at readings of an EGT temperature sensor and the reported AFR ratio you can tune better for power, maybe.

Too much fuss ain't it? Thinking like this I would go buy something else, not a Guzzi... 8V or not, it still is not a really modern design. That is why I love it I think. Humanly simple and good enough (and sounding good).
And it would require an engine or two to wear out on the dyno... too pricey!

 

[Penis Rotor]

I don't want to completely rebuild the Stelvio. I have the tools to do my own maintenance, so I'll make sure the valves clearances are o.k., sync the throttle bodies as best I can, and reset the tps. I've already gotten rid of the evap can. Now I just need a seat pad so I can stand being on the bike for long periods of time. And then I'm going to put some miles on her and see if she smoothes out a little (or I get used to her the way she is). If she does, she's a keeper; if she doesn't, you'll see her on Ebay.

Peace.

Sound perfectly reasonable to me. I have several customers with Stelvios. All of them are happy with the way they run in stock trim. A few of them may experiment with PCV-AT's or one of the cheaper 'add on's later but none of them are unhappy with them as they are. Perhaps the Stelvio simply isn't the bike for you. If not, no worries, as you say, sell it and move on.

Pete

 

[GTM®]

Actually Todd it's a big liquid cooled twin with air assist. Really. The amount of cooling air does directly to the heads on the 8V is really quite small. Also whilst Euro 3 and beyond emmissions are hard to beat with this sort of engine, more because of noise than anything else this has actually been tackled reasonably well by the factory.

Quite simply I don't think that the WBO sensor has the sensitivity to accurately detect what is happening in the combustion chamber. Also any of the sniffers I've seen and used on dynos may well give false or inadequate readings that do not reflect what is actually happening INSIDE the engine.

I know that reading AFR charts and looking at dyno curves will tell you that most of the new bikes have places where they run horribly lean, I believe you've said you had detected figures as high as 18/1 in places. OK but if that was the case with ten or eleven to one compression ratios and the crappy fuel we now have, even with a well designed and modern combustion chamber like that of the 8V you WOULD have detonation and you WOULD see evidence on the plugs of an extremely lean mixture. The thing is you don't!

I'm not saying that the PCV-AT won't work. I'm sure it will, and does. But I'm also convinced that there are many more factors to be looked at, many of them physical factors such as the restrictiveness or otherwise of both the inlet and exhaust tracts, the combustion chamber design and the cam timing and lift that mean that simply looking for good AFR figures with an O2 sensor midway down the exhaust tract is fraught with danger.

Facts for conversation here:
Fuel ratios largely control cooling in this sense. So "liquid-cooled" in this case, I'll assume you're referring to oil-cooling. I've watched a ~40ºF drop in external head temps (temp sensor w/VDST) with proper A/F ratios on the dyno.

The factory lets Magnetti-Marelli do the basic calculations as to the fuel/timing tables for each motor, and chooses a myriad of both fuel and timing corrections on the ECU, then chooses to select a narrow-band sensor to control fueling in the closed loop area, which I have seen AFR's as high as 17.6:1 on the dyno under load, @cruise areas... and as such Pete, it pre-detonates horribly, and the plugs I've pulled have shown to be horrifically lean (pure white). Not sure what you're talking about there.

I can't take credit for any of the "technology" that Dynojet has very successfully been using for quite some time, using their A/F data gathering means... in the past it was A/F pumps, now it's Wide Band Sensors. Everyone that has ridden a well mapped bike by this process, has enjoyed cooler running, and impressive throttle response that you did with Andrew's Griso. I'll close with that Dynojet's products (Power Commanders) have been on the podium at most every AMA Pro Race for the last 9+ years, and they are also winners at the Bonneville Salt Flats, amongst their own efforts with a 600cc Turbo Honda that was the FIRST AND ONLY to surpass the 200mph barrier (click below for info), using a Power Commander V and AutoTune technology, along with a secondary PC-V supplying an additional bank of injectors... so I'm not sure what you refer to above with "modern" engine technology in regards to these fueling solutions.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Facts for conversation here:
Fuel ratios largely control cooling in this sense. So "liquid-cooled" in this case, I'll assume you're referring to oil-cooling. I've watched a ~40ºF drop in external head temps (temp sensor w/VDST) with proper A/F ratios on the dyno.

The factory lets Magnetti-Marelli do the basic calculations as to the fuel/timing tables for each motor, and chooses a myriad of both fuel and timing corrections on the ECU, then chooses to select a narrow-band sensor to control fueling in the closed loop area, which I have seen AFR's as high as 17.6:1 on the dyno under load, @cruise areas... and as such Pete, it pre-detonates horribly, and the plugs I've pulled have shown to be horrifically lean (pure white). Not sure what you're talking about there.

It's just not what I've seen. I'm not doubting what you're finding. Just saying that I haven't found evidence of things being anywhere near that bad. On the couple of machines I've had the heads off I've also seen no evidence of pre-ignition or detonation. In fact the combustion chambers and piston tops looked remarkably good.

I'll say it again as I fear you're getting the wrong end of the stick. I think that the PCV and AT is a fine and splendid thing. I really do. It's just that people should understand that it isn't likely to be a simple plug and forget wonder-fix. It will need setting up and interpretting the data and results needs care and attention. Thassall.

Pete

 

[Mi_ka]

Could there be differences in the mapping of bikes sent to California vs bikes sent to Australia that could explain the differences you see?
And 17.6 AFR under load is pretty horible any way you see it :|
I would call it a mess...

 

[pauldaytona]

what I have seen on an ecu I was able to adjust and see running data on my laptop, the resulting fueling and ingnition times are made from the combination of a set of curves, that in my opinion can never be rightly corrected by an external module. For all the guzzi ecus, software does exist to alter the original program in the ecu, that is the most logical way to adjust the bikes running.