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Modern "No Start" issue solution

motobob

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Apr 23, 2009
Messages
110
Location
burnaby
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

That would be great. I've been researching the fuse blocks and the 8 fuse block dimensionally seems large for the area we have to work with. So I guess I'm more curious as to how you mounted it and where.
Bob
 

baloches

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
136
Location
Mascouche, Quebec
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Here you go:
DSCF0074.JPG


I just put the holder on top of the relays. I removed the three way connector and replaced the smaller gauge green wire with a 10 gauge. the red wire from that connector goes to battery positive. The white/red tracer goes to the 25A fuse.

There are the relays you were looking for:
DSCF0076.JPG


The wires are long enough to move the fuse block out of the way to access the relays. It looks confused but everything stows easily although I need to tidy it up yet...
DSCF0080.JPG
 

WayneOrwig

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,055
Location
Hog Mountain
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Bill Hagan has, or hopefully had, a starting issue on his Norge.

The short version:
He was getting 6.4 volts to the solenoid. He now had just under 10 volts there. Hopefully, that is the cure for his problem.

The long version:
I believe this started one year ago, on the way to the Virginia rally. It was intermittent. And debugging over a cell phone never works well. I don't believe that it was blowing the 15 amp starter solenoid fuse very often, but it did occasionally. And most of the time Bill stated that the starter relay was NOT clicking. So we thought it was upstream of the relay.
So through the winter, there were few or no issue. Then the Virginia rally comes around for this year, and it was again a no start. This time around I got to actually touch it when it was failing. The starter relay WAS actuating, but the starter solenoid was dead. And often the 15 amp fuse would blow.
Today I looked into it finally, and this is what I found.
Using a 1 ohm resistor and the 12 volt bike battery, I passed a lot of current through the system parts and made some rough resistance measurements.
From the battery, through the 30 amp fuse and the wiring harness, through the ignition switch, and back under the seat to the 15 amp fuse, is about 0.1 ohms total. Through the 15 amp fuse and the wire to the relay is about 0.06 ohms. From the relay to the starter solenoid is about 0.03 ohms. Total is about 0.19 ohms.
The starter solenoid is about .34 ohms. Or a total of 0.53 ohms, or around 22 amps at 12 volts.
Those numbers don't exactly work out, I was seeing a bit under 7 volts at the solenoid and 22 amps should be a bit over. But it is in the ballpark when you add on battery resistance etc.
The red/whte wire from the main 30 amp fuse passes by the starter relay. I tapped into that, cut the yellow wire from the 15 amp fuse, and tied the strong positive straight to the relay. That gives just under 10 volts at the solenoid, or about 30 amps instead of the 22. At 30 amps the wire from the relay to the solenoid is dropping 0.88 volts. I can't believe the starter solenoid needs that much more to energize, so I didn't touch that.

Hopefully that nearly 40% increase in amperage will make a world of difference.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,093
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

I think this confirms what Patrick and I have suggested will solve the problem. It is effectively the same thing as adding an extra wire from the battery positive terminal (I personally don't like tapping into existing wires), and is the same thing that owners have been doing to Guzzis for decades to solve the same problem.
 

Mi_ka

High Miler
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
622
Location
Thessaly, Greece
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

It must be a pattern of tradition, maybe the WWI aircrafts had such a scheme - do not forget the roots of Guzzi! :lol:
 

WayneOrwig

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,055
Location
Hog Mountain
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Brian UK said:
It is effectively the same thing as adding an extra wire from the battery positive terminal (I personally don't like tapping into existing wires),

That was the initial plan. But the battery already had an add on wire for lights, one for the horn, and one for the electric vest. I pretty large stack up of terminals on the positive post. Tapping into a well fused wire was best in this situation.
 

baloches

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Feb 9, 2009
Messages
136
Location
Mascouche, Quebec
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Very convoluted circuit indeed.

Thanks for the relay links Wayne, I'll be using something better suited from now on.
 

Bill Hagan

GT Reference
GT Famiglia
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,562
Location
Above Pott's Camp along Braddock's route, Virginia
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Wayne Orwig said:
Bill Hagan has, or hopefully had, a starting issue on his Norge.

The short version:
He was getting 6.4 volts to the solenoid. He now had just under 10 volts there. Hopefully, that is the cure for his problem.

The long version:
I believe this started one year ago, on the way to the Virginia rally. It was intermittent. And debugging over a cell phone never works well. I don't believe that it was blowing the 15 amp starter solenoid fuse very often, but it did occasionally. And most of the time Bill stated that the starter relay was NOT clicking. So we thought it was upstream of the relay.
So through the winter, there were few or no issue. Then the Virginia rally comes around for this year, and it was again a no start. This time around I got to actually touch it when it was failing. The starter relay WAS actuating, but the starter solenoid was dead. And often the 15 amp fuse would blow.
Today I looked into it finally, and this is what I found.
Using a 1 ohm resistor and the 12 volt bike battery, I passed a lot of current through the system parts and made some rough resistance measurements.
From the battery, through the 30 amp fuse and the wiring harness, through the ignition switch, and back under the seat to the 15 amp fuse, is about 0.1 ohms total. Through the 15 amp fuse and the wire to the relay is about 0.06 ohms. From the relay to the starter solenoid is about 0.03 ohms. Total is about 0.19 ohms.
The starter solenoid is about .34 ohms. Or a total of 0.53 ohms, or around 22 amps at 12 volts.
Those numbers don't exactly work out, I was seeing a bit under 7 volts at the solenoid and 22 amps should be a bit over. But it is in the ballpark when you add on battery resistance etc.
The red/whte wire from the main 30 amp fuse passes by the starter relay. I tapped into that, cut the yellow wire from the 15 amp fuse, and tied the strong positive straight to the relay. That gives just under 10 volts at the solenoid, or about 30 amps instead of the 22. At 30 amps the wire from the relay to the solenoid is dropping 0.88 volts. I can't believe the starter solenoid needs that much more to energize, so I didn't touch that.

Hopefully that nearly 40% increase in amperage will make a world of difference.

I took some pix of this process, tho, from a tech standpoint, suspect they are less than worthless. If, however, that doesn't bother you :whistle: , go here: http://tinyurl.com/NoMoreNoStartNorge

Bill
 

PaulJr

Just got it firing!
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
22
Location
Central VA
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

I'm ready to do this as I'm tired of it not starting when it feels like it, even after a 10 mile ride on an 75 degree day after 15 minutes sitting. My only question is that looking at the wiring diagram I pulled off line for the 1200 Sport it shows the power supply and starter supply reversed (orange(red)and yellow wire number 3 going to starter solid yellow number 5 the supply. We are talking about adding a new supply wire correct?

sign216 said:
Patrick Hayes suggests an easlier solution:

So what do you do with the red/yellow wire that you pull out of pin 5, just tape it off?

Tape, or a crimp dead-end cover. Whatever you prefer just to be sure it doesn't short to ground.

Here's a little graphic that should explain the improvement.

brevarelay.jpg


Look inside the relay diagram which is item #36. That little "P" shaped circuit on the right, fed by pins 1 and 2, is the relay's internal operating electromagnet coil. Not much work there.

Now look at the 'bridge' connection circuit fed by pins 3 an 5. When the electromagnet is energized, it pulls that "T" shaped device against the two internal connectors and bridges or 'makes' the connection. Pin 3 now feeds electrons out to your starter solenoid. The electrons come in via pin 5. But, that pin 5 source does several other things as well and has to pass through numerous connector blocks before getting here. We loose a little bit of power at every connector. Eventually, even though we still supply 12 volts to the solenoid, we no longer provide enough amperage to actually throw the heavy electromagnet in the solenoid. Thus, all we get is the 'click' of the relay itself.

If we simply provide a direct circuit from the battery into pin 5, we haven't changed anything about the operation of the relay, only the source of electrons which we will feed to the solenoid.

Patrick Hayes
Fremont CA
 

NOLAGuzzi

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Dec 5, 2008
Messages
102
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Yes it is a new wire from the positive battery terminal to the relay. BUT the fix outlined here by Mr. Hayes is for the smallblocks. I think the big blocks require something different.
 

PaulJr

Just got it firing!
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
22
Location
Central VA
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Well....I replaced the yellow wire (supply) on the 1200 Sport today. Had to make a removal tool for the connector, a .20 feeler guage ground to fit worked fine. I'm hoping this works out but must admit the orange (or red) and yellow wire going to the starter looks to be very small guage for the required job.

Wanted a Guzzi for the past 40 years, guess you should be careful what you wish for, just hoping I can move on to something else before I hang up the leathers.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,093
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Of course there may be other advantages to running a wire direct to pin 3 of the start relay.
!. the yellow wire you remove is an excellent switched dupply for anything else you want.

2. and I'm not 100% certain of this, but the ECU does sense battery voltage and will refuse to try to start if it is too low.Removing the solenoid load from that yellow switched wire might well help keep the voltage seen by the ECU higher.
 

The Oil Baron

Just got it firing!
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Messages
1
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Hi,

I'm new to this site but have just tried the fix on my 06 Norge. I first assumed (never assume :? ) it was the battery and swapped it only to find the same click from the solinoid when I hit the button. : :pinch: :cry:

I did make the mistake of bridging to the yellow wire first but found all that did was illuminate the numberplate light :blink: Must remember to read the instructions properly next time. :whistle:

I've just replaced the yellow wire with the feed from the fuse box and it works! :woohoo: When it finally stops raining here I will test it properly.

Thanks guys

Col
 

Belfastguzzi

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Nov 11, 2008
Messages
97
Location
Northern Ireland
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

baloches said:
after a good wait the battery would recover enough power to overcome the ECU's low-volt threshold and the bike would fire right up.

How does the battery recover power, by itself?

I regularly experience this frustrating and embarrassing non-starting fault. It can happen from cold or it can happen from hot and after many miles hard running/battery charging. It can take many minutes of trying before it comes to life. It happened plenty of times over the weekend. Once I was driving very slowly along a dead-end track because I was looking at the scenery & sea. The engine stopped and wouldn't start, only giving the obstinate silence. It may simply be coincidental to the brief slow-running and not related, but on this occasion it took what seemed like 10 minutes before it started again - a long period of uncertainty.

Is it really because the battery is recovering power, and if so, what does that mean? What is it doing?
I do find it hard to believe that the battery is actually losing power and then causing the problem, as the incidences are so arbitrary and seem to happen regardless of the battery being well charged.

Edit - does anyone know what the low-voltage threshold is? The battery voltage reading in the display isn't noticeably lower when the bike doesn't start, compared to when it does start.

Edit 2
- different problem but still electrics. The little red warning light regularly comes on and a lot of the time, but not all, it is accompanied by the left indicator bulb failure icon. Although the failure icon shows a lot of the time, the indicator bulbs all continue to work. Any thoughts about a cause?
 

Mi_ka

High Miler
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
622
Location
Thessaly, Greece
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Chemistry.
Please note I am no chemist myself:
I think that after a while you let it rest, the acid digs in more into the lead plates corroding them more but also generating some more chemical charge that is available next time you start her up.
A properly charged battery has a thick lead acid chemical charge blanket over the lead elements that is also protecting the underneath pure lead from being corroded and crystalized more. If no charge exists, this chemical charge blanket is too thin or almost non existent exposing pure lead that is being corroded by the acid like a sponge and crystalizes over time. If it crystalizes deeply it can no longer de-crystalize and we are looking for another battery (called third degree crystallization I think - first proper charge&discharge cycles / second degree deeper chemical crystallization still possible to be de-crystallised by a deep charge condition).
Just one of the things that can go wrong with this old technology.
 

guzzibob

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,187
Location
Los Angeles, CA
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Belfastguzzi,

Geez, I can really see how this must be driving you bonkers. Electronics is not really an area of my expertise, but to me this just doesn't sound logically like a battery/charge issue, esp since to happens when you have been running & presumably charging, esp if you have taken measures to check/replace an old battery. Sounds more like a poor/intermittent connection issue, or some other kind of intermittent electrical fault. Hopefully someone with more expertise will chime in. Best of luck.
 

ITSec

Cruisin' Guzzisti
GT Contributor
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
Messages
108
Location
Las Vegas
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Here's some assistance for those of us who are partially colorblind (red-green distinction problems are common among men).

The relay is normally the one located rearmost along the frame. (at least on every small-block Breva I've checked so far, a limited number). Use the tip about disconnecting the wire at the back of the starter/solenoid to be sure, if the wiring doesn't seem to match what's described.

Use a simple circuit testing light. The violet (grey for the colorblind) wire is ground from the relay, so it will never light. The yellow (whitish for the colorblind) wire next to it is from the switch; it will light the circuit tester when the starter switch is pressed. The slightly heavier orange (and some color) wire is the side that carries power to the relay; it is hot at all times while the ignition is on. The other orange (and some color) wire is the one that goes to the starter solenoid; it will only light while the switch is pressed and the relay is closed.

Whether using Patrick's design, or the one developed by Mike at MPH Cycles, this should help you more easily identify which wire does what.
 
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