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Modern "No Start" issue solution

kiwi dave

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,198
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

I've just modified the circuitry of one of my 1200 Sport, too many times I experienced this issue. Originally, I thought it was the location where it was garaged (Marina Del Rey, Ca), the salt air was very noticeable, power lines would snap, crackle and pop, and the Sport's battery would grow trees on both terminals. Once I got the bike home here in Auckland, I thought my troubles would disappear as the tree growth subsided.

Not the case. So out came the sidecutters, and a new (always) hot wire was supplied to the starting relay via an in-line fuse. Immediately, I noticed that the bike now fires quicker, and I hope this problem is gone for good.

But it has left me wondering, why only has this bike been affected and not my other 1200 Sport or three other CARC Geese that I own? Could it be deteriorating surfaces in the ignition switch? I'm not game to investigate.

For those that haven't done this modification, I suggest you carry a short piece of wire with a crocodile (alligator for the USA) clip on one end. If the problem ever eventuates, connect the clip to the positive end of the battery. Attempt to start the bike, and immediately apply the other end of the wire with 12 volts momentarily to the top of the F2 fuse (on the little metal part that sits on the surface). The bike will crank immediately, and it should get you home. I even used the helmet cable supplied with the bike on one occasion.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,085
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

Dave, I would be very surprised if modern ignition switches contain contacts rated at 20 amps, which is what the solenoid takes when intiially fired. Manufacturers these days normally use a relay to bypass the heavy current. It seems Guzzi are still stuck in a time warp.
 

kiwi dave

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,198
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

I agree Brian. It doesn't help that it is fed from a circuit with a 15 amp fuse that is also feeding other components.

Still, at the moment, I have no plans to deal to the other bikes unless some symptoms arise.
 

Wistrick

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
128
Location
Pendleton, OR
Can somebody explain this mod to me for an 09 Norge....from the thread I can figure out when it talking about the small block vs the big blocks....and I think my wiring is different colors than what is shown in the pictures...

thanks

Dan
 

Wistrick

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Messages
128
Location
Pendleton, OR
ok ill find it was hoping for a picture because I am lazy...and tired of messing with the electric system on this bike...

Dan
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,085
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
It's the smaller relay which is nearest to you when looking from the RHS of the bike. Pull it out with it's rubber holder and you will see the yellow wire. You may need to release one of the other relays too in order to get a bit more space to work in.
I would recommend no less than a 15 A fuse, as the solenoid takes about 20A for the brief time it pulls in.
 

Jagliotta

Just got it firing!
Joined
Mar 29, 2011
Messages
1
Regarding the "No Crank" issue. Can the problem be remedied with a higher amperage battery (more cranking amps and more amp hours)? Seems that the repair suggested makes the most of existing battery power and so would extend useful battery life. I'm just trying to determine if people continued to have the problem after either replacing the battery, or putting in a higher capacity battery.

Another question: when wiring the bypass, what gauge wire is best, and is the fuse a simple inline fuse? Thanks.

Joe
 

kiwi dave

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,198
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Jagliotta said:
Regarding the "No Crank" issue. Can the problem be remedied with a higher amperage battery (more cranking amps and more amp hours)? Seems that the repair suggested makes the most of existing battery power and so would extend useful battery life. I'm just trying to determine if people continued to have the problem after either replacing the battery, or putting in a higher capacity battery.

Another question: when wiring the bypass, what gauge wire is best, and is the fuse a simple inline fuse? Thanks.

Joe

I don't think a higher capacity battery would help as it doesn't solve the voltage drop that occurs through the ignition switch and wiring.

Although I didn't do this in my installation, next time I'm going to use the readily available battery tender cable and strip away the negative after chopping off the plug. The fuse will need to be uprated (I think it's only 7.5 amp as supplied) but it is the same type of fuse as the rest of the bike and has a nice terminal ready to be bolted to the battery's positive terminal.
 

john zibell

Moderator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
8,508
Location
Huntsville, AL
kiwi dave said:
Although I didn't do this in my installation, next time I'm going to use the readily available battery tender cable and strip away the negative after chopping off the plug. The fuse will need to be uprated (I think it's only 7.5 amp as supplied) but it is the same type of fuse as the rest of the bike and has a nice terminal ready to be bolted to the battery's positive terminal.

That is a little drastic. I just modified a small block for someone. It already had a cable for heated gear/battery tender. I just spliced into the positive of that cable (solder and shrink sleeve of course) and made sure it had a 15 amp fuse. Worked like a charm using an existing power source, and not destroying a perfectly good cable in the process. If you don't want the battery tender cable, pick up an inline fuse holder at an auto parts store. I hate destroying a perfectly good cable.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,085
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
As an addendum to all this, I had an intersting experience the other day.
Having done the rewire of the start relay a year ago, I suddenly get the click - no crank situation. Indeed it also blew the inline fuse I had fitted (20A). Replaced fuse and all was well again. Checked the wiring this morning, no problem, so took the starter off (not easy on a Norge). I then removed the solenoid. I expected to find that the operating arm pivot was stiff, but no. All I could find was a bit of old grease on the ouside of the plunger, which was a tight fit in the brass lining. Indeed this brass lining had a bit of a lip turned in at the end, which I cleaned off with a sharp knife. I also cleaned the plunger, then put some light oil round it and replaced all.
Fires up fine now, but only time will tell if I have fully cured it.

Oh, and I also replaced the old Yuasa battery in case it was the problem, but it happened again after fitting the new one too.
 

stun51

Just got it firing!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
2
Having the same (intermittent) no start clicking problem on my girlfriend's 04 Breva 750, I am glad to find this forum and the Patrick Hayes solution. I got out my multi-meter to identify the 4 wires to the relay and could identify which wire carried the "12V" supply, which wire came from the starter switch, etc. I was surprised to discover that the ground wire indicated 43 to 48 OHMs of resistance. This is when the key is turned on so the circuits are activated. I am wondering if I should also run a wire from the relay plug to ground and get zero a OHM reading. I checked two of the other relays and found that they both showed similar "ground" readings of about 48 OHM's. This is measured to the battery negative terminal in all cases mentioned. I am going to go ahead with the battery direct fused 12V line to the relay but not mess with the ground wire at this time. I am wondering any one has comments.

Mine:
07 K1200GT
2011 F800R
Hers:
04 Breva 750
07 Kymco 150 scooter
 

Mi_ka

High Miler
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
622
Location
Thessaly, Greece
stun51 said:
This is when the key is turned on so the circuits are activated.

ERROR!
Resistance measurements on active circuits should not be performed by an Ohmmeter/Multimeter.
If you have current running through cables because circuits are energized, you will have some voltage at their ends depending on their length/circumference and material's resistance.
If all connections are good you will have some millivolts in your case.
An ohmeter/multimeter is an active voltage meter:It itself weakly powers the circuit with few volts through a big resistance and measures the voltage across this resistance. If a circuit is energized then it measures the circuit's existing millivolts so the displayed resistance is false and the displayed value depends on the specific model/instrument making it uncomparable to other model ohmmeters/multimeters.
 

stun51

Just got it firing!
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
Messages
2
Thanks MiKa. I did the Patrick Hayes mod and all is well. Since it was an intermittent problem, time will tell if the problem is solved. In regards to the correct use of the multi meter for resistance measurements... I expected to see zero ohms between the wire to the relay ground and chassis ground when the circuit is not powered? I do not see this, the meter reads OL (overoad or high resistance, not grounded).
 

Mi_ka

High Miler
Joined
May 14, 2010
Messages
622
Location
Thessaly, Greece
Lowest possible measurement for a usual good instrument is around 0.4-0.6 Ohms (self resistance of probes and instrument-probe connections). If you press good quality probes against each other really hard you may measure as low as 0.2 Ohms.
From there you add up the measured resistance of measure connections/cables/devices.
Since I do not yet own a Guzzi :( I am not yet familiar with the required connections/values to be expected so I can't help you... Unless you measure 12V with the ohmmeter so it goes full scale or so - if so, when you reverse the connection you should get different readings like maybe negative resistance if the instrument is of digital type.
 

dadagonga

Just got it firing!
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
2
Just to say thank you for the explanations, they helped my small Breva. I did the relay to fuse to battery solution and it works excellent! Looks like no problems starting up no more...

Even girls can fix bikes :)
 

rguzz

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
94
Location
UK
I have a Griso 8v, and it is beginning to blow these starter relay fuses. Have read thru all of this thread, and am not clear what to do, as it travels around a bit. Has anyone got any specific pics to direct me on the G8V, and exactly what to do ? Or is fitting a greater than 7.5 amp fuse sufficient ?? Very gratefully, RGUZZ.
 

rguzz

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
94
Location
UK
Hi all,
Looking at the manual, the fuse for starter solenoid is 15amp, not 7.5. It's 15amp on my G8V, and it sometimes blows. Should I stick a 20 / 30amp in, or do the wiring mod.
Protecing a potentially intrinsically poor starter circuit with a higher value fuse just seems wrong, you wouldn't do it in your kitchen.
So any quick guide for mod on G8V, much appreciated.
RGUZZ.
 

kiwi dave

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
2,198
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Yes, do the mod, don't just increase the size of the fuse.

Read all the posts from the beginning, you will get the gist of what's required. No experience with 8 valve motors, but I wouldn't expect any difference in their starting circuits.
 

rguzz

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Messages
94
Location
UK
Have done the mod, and works fine. But my new white plug that goes on 4 pin relay is not exactly the same, so had to butcher the black plastic shoulder around the 4 pins, to make white plug fit.
Does anyone know how to source these original white plugs that fit snugly on to relay ??
 
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