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Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. ITSec

    ITSec Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Here's some assistance for those of us who are partially colorblind (red-green distinction problems are common among men).

    The relay is normally the one located rearmost along the frame. (at least on every small-block Breva I've checked so far, a limited number). Use the tip about disconnecting the wire at the back of the starter/solenoid to be sure, if the wiring doesn't seem to match what's described.

    Use a simple circuit testing light. The violet (grey for the colorblind) wire is ground from the relay, so it will never light. The yellow (whitish for the colorblind) wire next to it is from the switch; it will light the circuit tester when the starter switch is pressed. The slightly heavier orange (and some color) wire is the side that carries power to the relay; it is hot at all times while the ignition is on. The other orange (and some color) wire is the one that goes to the starter solenoid; it will only light while the switch is pressed and the relay is closed.

    Whether using Patrick's design, or the one developed by Mike at MPH Cycles, this should help you more easily identify which wire does what.
     
    gasgas likes this.
  2. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I've just modified the circuitry of one of my 1200 Sport, too many times I experienced this issue. Originally, I thought it was the location where it was garaged (Marina Del Rey, Ca), the salt air was very noticeable, power lines would snap, crackle and pop, and the Sport's battery would grow trees on both terminals. Once I got the bike home here in Auckland, I thought my troubles would disappear as the tree growth subsided.

    Not the case. So out came the sidecutters, and a new (always) hot wire was supplied to the starting relay via an in-line fuse. Immediately, I noticed that the bike now fires quicker, and I hope this problem is gone for good.

    But it has left me wondering, why only has this bike been affected and not my other 1200 Sport or three other CARC Geese that I own? Could it be deteriorating surfaces in the ignition switch? I'm not game to investigate.

    For those that haven't done this modification, I suggest you carry a short piece of wire with a crocodile (alligator for the USA) clip on one end. If the problem ever eventuates, connect the clip to the positive end of the battery. Attempt to start the bike, and immediately apply the other end of the wire with 12 volts momentarily to the top of the F2 fuse (on the little metal part that sits on the surface). The bike will crank immediately, and it should get you home. I even used the helmet cable supplied with the bike on one occasion.
     
  3. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Dave, I think the problem comes back to the size of the wire used in the loom. From what I can see, the size is barely enough to do the job when new and in pristine condition - as the loom/bike ages, well problems kick in.

    When my bike was new I had an intermittent blinker switch. Turned out to be the plug in the back of the dash where the contact was not fully inserted into the socket and only sometimes touching. I also had intermittent ignition cutting out - traced back to the alarm/immobiliser module. Little problems are in these bikes due to cost cutting and poor assembly.

    Love the bike though and when things are fixed it's a real hoot. All part of having an affair with a Guzzi!
     
  4. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    Dave, I would be very surprised if modern ignition switches contain contacts rated at 20 amps, which is what the solenoid takes when intiially fired. Manufacturers these days normally use a relay to bypass the heavy current. It seems Guzzi are still stuck in a time warp.
     
  5. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Re: Modern "No Crank" Starting issue solution

    I agree Brian. It doesn't help that it is fed from a circuit with a 15 amp fuse that is also feeding other components.

    Still, at the moment, I have no plans to deal to the other bikes unless some symptoms arise.
     
  6. Wistrick

    Wistrick Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Can somebody explain this mod to me for an 09 Norge....from the thread I can figure out when it talking about the small block vs the big blocks....and I think my wiring is different colors than what is shown in the pictures...

    thanks

    Dan
     
  7. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Dan, there is a yellow wire in the socket of the starting relay. I removed this wire from mine a taped it up and never to be used again. Then I added a wire direct from the +ve terminal (the red one) through a 7.5Amp fuse and crimped on a auto type lug, just like the one that came out of the socket, and inserted this into the socket. Hasn't missed a start since - took about 10 minutes all up.
     
  8. Wistrick

    Wistrick Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Which one is the start relay???.........

    Dan
     
  9. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Seems it could be any of the three - however it is the one that clicks when you press the start button - gets easier from there...
     
  10. Wistrick

    Wistrick Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    ok ill find it was hoping for a picture because I am lazy...and tired of messing with the electric system on this bike...

    Dan
     
  11. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    It's the smaller relay which is nearest to you when looking from the RHS of the bike. Pull it out with it's rubber holder and you will see the yellow wire. You may need to release one of the other relays too in order to get a bit more space to work in.
    I would recommend no less than a 15 A fuse, as the solenoid takes about 20A for the brief time it pulls in.
     
  12. Jagliotta

    Jagliotta Just got it firing!

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    Regarding the "No Crank" issue. Can the problem be remedied with a higher amperage battery (more cranking amps and more amp hours)? Seems that the repair suggested makes the most of existing battery power and so would extend useful battery life. I'm just trying to determine if people continued to have the problem after either replacing the battery, or putting in a higher capacity battery.

    Another question: when wiring the bypass, what gauge wire is best, and is the fuse a simple inline fuse? Thanks.

    Joe
     
  13. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    I don't think a higher capacity battery would help as it doesn't solve the voltage drop that occurs through the ignition switch and wiring.

    Although I didn't do this in my installation, next time I'm going to use the readily available battery tender cable and strip away the negative after chopping off the plug. The fuse will need to be uprated (I think it's only 7.5 amp as supplied) but it is the same type of fuse as the rest of the bike and has a nice terminal ready to be bolted to the battery's positive terminal.
     
  14. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    That is a little drastic. I just modified a small block for someone. It already had a cable for heated gear/battery tender. I just spliced into the positive of that cable (solder and shrink sleeve of course) and made sure it had a 15 amp fuse. Worked like a charm using an existing power source, and not destroying a perfectly good cable in the process. If you don't want the battery tender cable, pick up an inline fuse holder at an auto parts store. I hate destroying a perfectly good cable.
     
  15. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    I have a 7.5 Amp fuse in my bypass and it works fine - well when the battery is not flat. Looking at one of the new Shorai batteries Todd has for sale - might even get a few of them for works as well.
     
  16. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    As an addendum to all this, I had an intersting experience the other day.
    Having done the rewire of the start relay a year ago, I suddenly get the click - no crank situation. Indeed it also blew the inline fuse I had fitted (20A). Replaced fuse and all was well again. Checked the wiring this morning, no problem, so took the starter off (not easy on a Norge). I then removed the solenoid. I expected to find that the operating arm pivot was stiff, but no. All I could find was a bit of old grease on the ouside of the plunger, which was a tight fit in the brass lining. Indeed this brass lining had a bit of a lip turned in at the end, which I cleaned off with a sharp knife. I also cleaned the plunger, then put some light oil round it and replaced all.
    Fires up fine now, but only time will tell if I have fully cured it.

    Oh, and I also replaced the old Yuasa battery in case it was the problem, but it happened again after fitting the new one too.
     
  17. stun51

    stun51 Just got it firing!

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    Having the same (intermittent) no start clicking problem on my girlfriend's 04 Breva 750, I am glad to find this forum and the Patrick Hayes solution. I got out my multi-meter to identify the 4 wires to the relay and could identify which wire carried the "12V" supply, which wire came from the starter switch, etc. I was surprised to discover that the ground wire indicated 43 to 48 OHMs of resistance. This is when the key is turned on so the circuits are activated. I am wondering if I should also run a wire from the relay plug to ground and get zero a OHM reading. I checked two of the other relays and found that they both showed similar "ground" readings of about 48 OHM's. This is measured to the battery negative terminal in all cases mentioned. I am going to go ahead with the battery direct fused 12V line to the relay but not mess with the ground wire at this time. I am wondering any one has comments.

    Mine:
    07 K1200GT
    2011 F800R
    Hers:
    04 Breva 750
    07 Kymco 150 scooter
     
  18. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    ERROR!
    Resistance measurements on active circuits should not be performed by an Ohmmeter/Multimeter.
    If you have current running through cables because circuits are energized, you will have some voltage at their ends depending on their length/circumference and material's resistance.
    If all connections are good you will have some millivolts in your case.
    An ohmeter/multimeter is an active voltage meter:It itself weakly powers the circuit with few volts through a big resistance and measures the voltage across this resistance. If a circuit is energized then it measures the circuit's existing millivolts so the displayed resistance is false and the displayed value depends on the specific model/instrument making it uncomparable to other model ohmmeters/multimeters.
     
  19. stun51

    stun51 Just got it firing!

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    Thanks MiKa. I did the Patrick Hayes mod and all is well. Since it was an intermittent problem, time will tell if the problem is solved. In regards to the correct use of the multi meter for resistance measurements... I expected to see zero ohms between the wire to the relay ground and chassis ground when the circuit is not powered? I do not see this, the meter reads OL (overoad or high resistance, not grounded).
     
  20. Mi_ka

    Mi_ka High Miler

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    Lowest possible measurement for a usual good instrument is around 0.4-0.6 Ohms (self resistance of probes and instrument-probe connections). If you press good quality probes against each other really hard you may measure as low as 0.2 Ohms.
    From there you add up the measured resistance of measure connections/cables/devices.
    Since I do not yet own a Guzzi :( I am not yet familiar with the required connections/values to be expected so I can't help you... Unless you measure 12V with the ohmmeter so it goes full scale or so - if so, when you reverse the connection you should get different readings like maybe negative resistance if the instrument is of digital type.
     

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