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Modern "No Start" issue solution

Discussion in 'Chat & Tech Info' started by GT-Rx®, Jul 1, 2010.

  1. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    UPDATE!

    My 7.5 Amp fuse lost its cool on the weekend as I tried to start. Now it sports a hefty 15 Amp fuse and I don't expect any further issues. Fingers crossed!
     
  2. dadagonga

    dadagonga Just got it firing!

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    Just to say thank you for the explanations, they helped my small Breva. I did the relay to fuse to battery solution and it works excellent! Looks like no problems starting up no more...

    Even girls can fix bikes :)
     
  3. rguzz

    rguzz Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I have a Griso 8v, and it is beginning to blow these starter relay fuses. Have read thru all of this thread, and am not clear what to do, as it travels around a bit. Has anyone got any specific pics to direct me on the G8V, and exactly what to do ? Or is fitting a greater than 7.5 amp fuse sufficient ?? Very gratefully, RGUZZ.
     
  4. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    RGUZZ,

    My apologies for not updating this forum sooner! 15A works wonderfully and I have not had any issues since the upgrade (7.5A to 15A Fuse).

    Enjoy!
     
  5. rguzz

    rguzz Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Hi all,
    Looking at the manual, the fuse for starter solenoid is 15amp, not 7.5. It's 15amp on my G8V, and it sometimes blows. Should I stick a 20 / 30amp in, or do the wiring mod.
    Protecing a potentially intrinsically poor starter circuit with a higher value fuse just seems wrong, you wouldn't do it in your kitchen.
    So any quick guide for mod on G8V, much appreciated.
    RGUZZ.
     
  6. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Yes, do the mod, don't just increase the size of the fuse.

    Read all the posts from the beginning, you will get the gist of what's required. No experience with 8 valve motors, but I wouldn't expect any difference in their starting circuits.
     
  7. rguzz

    rguzz Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Have done the mod, and works fine. But my new white plug that goes on 4 pin relay is not exactly the same, so had to butcher the black plastic shoulder around the 4 pins, to make white plug fit.
    Does anyone know how to source these original white plugs that fit snugly on to relay ??
     
  8. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Probably a "Molex" brand - try their website but it will take some work to identify it. Are there any numbers on the plug itself? they might be hidden inside...
     
  9. Rafael

    Rafael GT Reference

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    Okay, I'm picking this thread out of the many related threads to post my solution. It may not be a long lasting one but I'll find out.

    First off I haven't read all of the MPH solution thread. And I don't understand the solution diagram but I do understand that the voltage at the solenoid wire from the starter relay gets too low. My position is that the stock set up works most of the time on most bikes. My buddies to modern guzzis have NEVER had a starting problem. I'm guessing mine does cuz it started life in a barn with fancy horses.

    So, I've previously cleaned and lubed the starter, cleaned pertinent wire connectors with DeOxit.
    This worked for a quite while then recently started having the clicking no start problem again. It starts after a about 3 attempts. Checked the relatively new battery with load tester - it's okay. I checked the voltage at the connector to the solenoid and found it at 11.83 in start mode ( battery is at 12.8). So, I cut off the connector and put a gold plated one on and rechecked the voltage and found it improved to 11.93. Just enough to get it started on the first try without the clicking problem.

    This part has been mentioned above already, the solenoid wire is 20 ga.! Next time I have tank off for service I will bypass the 20 ga. with with a 16 ga. wire or add it in parallel with the existing one. This should allow a little more amperage to flow - I think.
     
  10. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    That's been my experience too. But when they fail there's only one surefire solution IMHO.

    It will, but will it be enough? The problem is the current for the solenoid from the starter relay is sourced from the ignition switch (and the cables from the battery to the switch and the switch to the starter relay). I can't accept the specifications of the ignition switch would cater for this large amount of current plus all the other loads it feeds. The fix described is simple and reliable, and will also increase the longevity of the ignition switch too.
     
  11. Rafael

    Rafael GT Reference

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    Right,... I'll measure the voltage at the relay next time I'm in there to see if there is a significant difference. Your right about the ignition switch, its a bigger deal to replace in a mod bike than the old tontis. When the gold connector doesn't do the trick any more work, then I'll try Pat's jumper from the battery or the MPH add on.

    I need a diagram in English to understand the MPH relay set up. My thought was to place a relay close to the solenoid juice by the + starter cable and triggered by the solenoid trigger wire from the relay. I think this should work based on the idea that low voltage fails to operate the solenoid and that its not the dash preventing a start because it sensed low voltage in the trigger wire.
     
  12. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Not sure why you need an additional relay. Identify the starter relay, and cut the yellow wire feeding it. Then join a wire with a 15 amp inline fuse from the positive of the battery to the short yellow wire protruding from the relay. If you don't care for wire joins, then replace the wire completely on the relay base. I'm personally quite comfortable with a soldered or crimped wire join protected with heat shrink.

    The loose yellow wire from the loom can be used for any switched power functions, remembering the limitations of the current through the ignition switch. I used mine to power the Power Commander (or was it the AutoTune I can't remember which).
     
  13. sign216

    sign216 High Miler

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    I did this mod for my smallblock, and got only 0.25 voltage increase. Decided it wasn't worth the complication, and removed it.

    What results have other people received?
     
  14. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    I have done this mod on several Guzzis of various ages and sizes, and it has always cured the non start problem.
    Of course as the original issue is always intermittant, doing voltage readings may well be a red herring.
     
  15. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

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    While browsing the site I stumbled upon this thread. After reading, and re-reading, it I came to the conclusion that I should do it, if for no other reason that running the actual start current through the ignition switch seems like a pretty dumb idea. As pointed out, I doubt very much if the switch contacts are designed to handle that sort of current.

    I bought a copy of the workshop manual (2008 Breva) on CD, but the cct. diagram is virtually unreadable, so I downloaded Carl Allison's version, even though it's for a 2005. By a process of elimination I figured out which relay was which, but the colours of the start relay on my bike are slightly different to his drawing. Thinking that maybe a later version might be better, I downloaded all his drawings from 2005 on, but nothing matches the colours on my relay!

    The actual colours are Yellow and Orange/Yellow for the switched cct, and Brown and Red/Black for the relay coil. Has anyone else found this discrepancy with the colours?
     
  16. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    The workshop manual can be downloaded from this site (downloads section) Also there is a generals service training manual that actually shows the physical location of the relays had you downloaded that (but again, actual machines may differ, mine was different, and a friends was by the book). As for the colors, Carl states the colors are from the Guzzi schematic, and Guzzi doesn't always hold true. I cheated and used the MPH gadget so colors weren't an issue on the 1100 Breva, but I used the other technique on a 750 Breva with no issues.
     
  17. sign216

    sign216 High Miler

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    I can confirm that the wire colors on the bike often don't match what's listed in the shop manual.

    Just a part of owning a small marque Italian bike, huh?
     
  18. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Ok, no big deal if the colours vary, as long as I know it can happen (I worked in electronics - when I used to work :D ) so working without complete, and/or accurate, information is nothing new.

    John, the first thing I did was download all available info, but the manuals didn't cover the 2008 Breva, so I bought one and sent it to Todd to add to the collection. The only thing wrong with it is the cct. diagram - as I said, it's unreadable, so I'm grateful for Carl's excellent work (and this forum, of course!).
     
  19. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    What is so different with the 2008 Breva?
     
  20. dikman

    dikman Tuned and Synch'ed

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    No idea, but I figured I may as well get one, just in case.

    Anyhow, here's a bit of a conundrum.....
    I replaced the yellow wire with a feed from my aux. fuse block, turned on the ignition, it goes through its start-up routine, I hit the starter and.....nothing.

    Hmmm. Bit odd. Then I notice that there's no neutral light on. Pull in the clutch, fiddle with the gear lever, yep, definitely in neutral and there's the light. Hit the starter, turns over, fires, runs for a couple of seconds (rough as guts) and stops. Turn it off and back on, no neutral light again. Huh? A bit more fiddling and I find that if I pull the clutch lever in the neutral light comes on but goes out when I release the clutch. Ok, back to square one.

    I removed my new battery feed, restored the old connection and this time everything is back to normal and it fires and runs fine.

    This has me puzzled. I've been poring over the cct diagram, but I'm blowed if I can see any link with the clutch switch - unless my bike is wired differently to Carl's drawings.

    Any ideas most welcome at this stage.
     

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