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Moto Guzzi V7 Lean Angle (stock tire size)

Discussion in 'V7/V85/V9 Chat & Tech' started by Pspice, Mar 5, 2019.

  1. Pspice

    Pspice Just got it firing! GT Site Contributor!

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    Hello,

    I'm a new (3 seasons) and cautious rider with very little experience with taking a motorcycle to any limit. I've never knee dragged, wheelie, stoppie, etc. I've locked up the rear tire a couple times during a MSF course and that's it.

    Please forgive my naïve or ignorant question but does anybody know what the lean angle is on a V7 Racer with stock tires (Pirelli Sport Demon)?

    I live in southern California and have been invited to ride some twisty roads. I'm curious if the V7 Racer is designed to lean over until pegs/exhaust/kickstand (whichever comes first) scrape the street? Or will the tread (stock Pirelli Sport Demon) limit my lean? Maybe all motorcycles are designed to lean successfully until pegs (or something) limit lean assuming perfect conditions?

    I certainly do not want to abuse my beautiful motorcycle or risk my health but I'm always willing to learn the limitations of engineering design. It'll be good to know what the motorcycle will do (hopefully not low-side) when leaned over to lightly scrape pegs.

    Thank you kindly...just learning the motorcycle engineering and enjoying along the way.

    I just learned there is a V7 forums - sorry. I would delete and repost but I don't know how to. Admin, can you please move this thread to the V7 forums?
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  2. vagrant

    vagrant Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    If riding with others ride your own ride. Leave the testosterone at home.
    If you start dragging things on a V7 your going to fast for a public street!
     
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  3. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    Yours are hardly ignorant questions, and you are smart to ask them.

    You are also likely more experienced that you think you are if you are wise enough to consider such issues.

    Have you considered a track day? With instructor? Worth the money and will not only answer your questions but give you great (but not over) confidence.

    If that isn't feasible, you might find a lonesome road or two -- even in California such likely exist, and even better if near you! ;) -- with some curves with good surfaces and where you have complete visibility as to what is coming.

    I had two curves in my commute south of Atlanta years ago that were perfect. Every day I rode to work -- and I did so almost every day -- I would play with those curves. Steve is right about taking care on public roads, but one can still experiment safely for you and the public with lean angle at (OK, near) speed limits. It also helps to know LEO patterns!

    Seriously, you might be surprised at what you can discover about yourself and your V7 by safe practice.

    I have only once touched down on my Stornello -- tho have numerous times on my other Guzzis on both sides. Each was a bit different feeling in those, and the first time one scrapes hard parts it is exciting. :eek: If one knows what's coming and maintains throttle control and even increasing, not chopping, it, all will be well ... except perhaps the need for an underwear change. ;)

    None of the above was the "scientific answer" I think you seek, but, heck, I'm a liberal arts guy, so moto-platitudes are about all I can provide. :giggle:

    Best wishes,

    Bill
     
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  4. Knuckle Dragger

    Knuckle Dragger Just got it firing!

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    Please don't think I'm being pompous. I'm not. There's no relevant 'lean angle' for any shaft driven bike, due to the nature of the shaft itself & the principle of torque reaction. Simply put, if you apply more throttle when leaning, you get more leaning clearance (the arse-end of the bike rises) & conversely if you back off mid corner it sinks. A handful of front brake will (obviously) cause the front end to dive, too.

    Gutsies & Boxers are especially prone to this phenomenon, but it exists with every shaft driven bike. Obviously, cornering with slight amounts of power applied increases cornering clearance. More importantly, backing off mid-corner (or braking) not only reduces clearance, but unsettles balance, smoothness & ultimately speed.

    I'm no expert, but I've always maintained that to achieve an element of 'oneness' or sympatico between machine & operator one must drive smoothly. No sudden acceleration, no snatches of front brake. Most big twins have lovely broad & smooth torque bands, gobs of engine braking & prefer a smoother, less frenetic style of riding. I try to minimise braking wherever possible, with 2 wheels or 4, instead surfing that midrange torque, engine braking & higher cornering speeds to maintain steady progress.

    It doesn't seem fast, but it has been commented more than once by mates that my progress using this style is surprisingly rapid. I think that speed seems to be a byproduct of smoothness, whereas applying rapid changes of attitude (brake, steering & throttle inputs) unsettles the bike more. The olde worlde GP drivers the likes of Stirling Moss, Jack Brabham & the great Nuvolari, Agosti, King Kenny & Mike (the Bike) Hailwood were masters of this technique. I'm merely an over-ambitious amateur by contrast.

    A smoothly ridden but relatively gutless old Duke or Gutsie can embarrass many a maniacally ridden & much more powerful asian-made pocket rocket. Even old-timers - bikes AND riders - can show a clean pair of heels to at least some of the youngsters when the going gets twisty. This becomes much more evident, & relevant, when the roads become wet & slippery or even worse frosty. Here, smoothness is everything.

    For truly rapid progress, a more manic style of riding/driving is probably the 'modern' way to win races. This is OH SO hard to accomplish, & utterly impossible for me. Remember that it's less safe & also terribly harsh on both machine & operator: a 1 1/2 or 2 hour race will destroy at least 2 sets of (car) tyres, the bike's or cars engine, possibly gearbox too & the driver will lose 2-3 kg of bodyweight! These dudes are some of the world's fittest athletes. I kid you not. Me? Well I'm built for comfort, not speed!
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2019
  5. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    ^^^^^^^^

    All true, and reminds me of my failing to mention earlier the impact of a well-tuned suspension.

    I did not read the OP's post to mean he wanted to take on Rossi, but more that he wondered at what point the laws of physics decreed that he and his V7 would be sliding along the pavement together ... or worse.

    Smoothness is certainly a big part of that, and suspension is, IMO, critical to smoothness. I am, regrettably, a Neanderthal in applying the theory to the reality, but appreciate the science, especially when someone knowledgeable sets up my motos. I certainly know the terror that comes with an unsettled one. Whether brought about by ham-fisted throttle input or whatever, a well-sorted suspension will give the rider a better chance of telling tale later without an ambulance ride.

    I would also add that even on a superbly suspended machine -- and dramatically more so on a out-of-the-box-or-badly-fiddled one -- throttle maintenance is so important. I mentioned that in my previous post, but remain convinced it is one of the keys to not making love to blacktop! :cry:

    Knuckle Dragger addresses that in detail, and warns against (other than engine) braking. I have only about 5K miles in V7 experience, i.e., little, but do wonder if the "midrange torque" is as pronounced and useful in small blocks than big ones. Interesting; I'll play around with that ... if the cursed snow ever melts. :swear:

    Bill
     
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  6. GuzziMoto

    GuzziMoto GT Reference GT Contributor

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    I am not going to tell anyone how to ride their motorcycle. But one basic question I read in the OP's post was about would something drag or otherwise let him know to stop leaning over before he went off the edge of the tires. And the answer is yes, things will start to drag before you ride off the edge of the tires. For one thing, the footpegs have little feelers and they typically will start to scrap the pavement. The nice thing about them is they fold up with the pegs, so it is something of a "soft limit". If you have a center stand on yours it may also drag. That is a harder limit and less forgiving. Be careful if you start dragging that or any other fixed hard parts.
    Also, a track day or track school is a great way to better learn the limits your bike has to offer. But you would be amazed at what you can learn in as simple an activity as riding in an empty parking lot. We used to have an event series around here called BattlTrax. It was run by Buell dealers in their parking lots. It was like a miniature version of an AutoCross on two wheels. But lacking a real event like that you can simply set up cones in a parking lot to work on your riding and help you learn the limits of your bike and abilities. It is amazing when you can lean your bike over far enough in first gear to drag your foot peg. But having the confidence in your bike and abilities to lean it over that far in a safe environment like an empty parking lot is something that you can work on. We would go out to an empty lot out by us and set up cones to practice. Then when we did the real events, or even just going on a fast street ride, we would do that much better.
    And lastly, as someone else said, ride within your own limits. It is good to push those limits, but carefully. Don't feel you have to ride at anyone elses pace if you aren't comfortable with it. Ride your bike.
    That's my two cents.....
     
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  7. Roose

    Roose Just got it firing!

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    Short answer: Lean angle changes with the environment of the road camber, speed, radius etc.
    Go old school and watch Keith Code, Twist of the Wrist vids......throttle control....parking lots and cones are good drills....and of course a track day....some MSF instructors will give lessons on the side too.
    If you need knee dragging excitement....it begins on Sunday....MotoGP is back!! Watch the GP3 guys, they are wild!
     
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  8. Pspice

    Pspice Just got it firing! GT Site Contributor!

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    Thank you all very much.

    @GuzziMoto - thank you for validating that v7's have enough tread such that it should hold the lean until pegs scrape without running off the edge of the tire presuming ideal conditions. This was what I was hoping to get answered. :)

    I intend to practice my skills in an empty parking lot or track (off public roads), however, also trying to gauge if practicing hard leans is even achievable on a v7 - or am I asking for a low-side. Again, thanks for the validation.

    @everyone else - thank you for wisdom and educating me on unobvious variables that come into play. I've been driving cars aggressively on track (never on street) for good number of times throughout the last 10 years; enough to make me understand physics and limitations. I'm a driving enthusiast and enjoy track driving.

    I'm just onward to motorcycles and they are so alien to me that I only know what media (youtube, magazine publications) advertises: sport bikes (faired and naked) can lean to drag pegs for example. I understand Cruisers can do the same albeit with less lean angle. Adventure, Dual Sport, Café, or Retro Standard (v7/v9, Bonneville, Norton, etc) is a question mark for me, especially the latter.

    I understand that media portrays sport riding on sport bikes, less aggressive riding for essentially everything else = this is all I know with respect to capabilities of a motorcycle.

    Just like driving, I strive to be proficient when learning a new skill and trying to understand if the V7 is capable of teaching me more riding technique - hence my ask about lean angle, clearance, and tire capability. I'm really enjoying the V7 and it's fulfilling my current skillset. I'm not yet skilled enough to ride spiritedly but that is something I strive for, safely and maturely.

    Thanks for everyone's patience and willingness to educate me.
    I'm still open to others' report of their experiences of "hard" turns on V7s.

    Warm regards!
     
  9. GT-Rx®

    GT-Rx® Administrator Staff Member

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    Guzzis, in general, have an impressive amount of lean angle grip (tire dependant of course!). The V7 is no exception. I'm an ex-pro Racer, and I've only drug a few things on them on the street (see video below). Also, the Guareschi brothers in Italy are kicking off a racing series over there as promoted on the MotoGuzzi.it webpage here; http://www.motoguzzi.com/en_EN/Fast-Endurance/participate/ - pic below. My ride video below on my V7 Racer RideMalibu.com rental a few years back.

    [​IMG]

     
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  10. Knuckle Dragger

    Knuckle Dragger Just got it firing!

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    I rarely if ever ground either peg on any bike. It occasionally happens (on lefts usually) if i hit a whoop in the road surface mid corner, & maybe more often at ultra-low speeds in city riding, car parks etc. But still rarely. Using rearsets, it's usually the centrestand lever (or my toes) that grounds first.

    I should also mention that shifting one's own weight (my own not being insubstantial) around on the saddle radically increases ground clearance by reducing the actual lean angle required for a given cornering speed. This is a good thing to practise doing in the twisties: not necessarily to look like some kind of naff 'boy racer', but more for an additional layer of safety & security for wet or slippery road surfaces.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2019
  11. Pspice

    Pspice Just got it firing! GT Site Contributor!

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    Albeit not a v7 racer, but additional proof no less.

     
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  12. jefrs

    jefrs Just got it firing!

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    Riding my V7 II Stone 2015 I have developed a bad habit of scraping my toes on the road because the bike tips in and out so well; England is mostly twisties, and roundabouts.
    Just out of general interest I did some digging on the interweb and found a number of reproduction and restoration Guzzi race bikes in Italy. All fitted with Avon Roadrider. Possibly because these come in competition as well as street flavour.
    I have Avon Roadrider on the other bike so I had the Pirelli swapped out.
    Gone has the slipping side grip in the dry nevermind non-existent in the wet (it rains here sometimes). Gone has the tram-lining over lumps and bumps and road patches. Gone has the early activation of the ABS as the Pirelli lost grip. The Avons are perhaps a trifle wider and taller than the diabolical Pirelli at the same size. The other bike has about 5000 miles and the Avons look bedded-in, the V7 came with the about same mileage with a pair of well worn Pirelli; price about the same if not cheaper. A bit of a no-brainer.
    Very confident and smooth ride, and I really must stop leaning over so far.
     

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