(no) BS Bike & Keith Code

[RJVB]

No buffalo dung indeed:

[youtube]3nRUeEkS644[/youtube]

Not really new, and I guess we all know it in our hearts, guts or liver:

countersteering, and nothing (much) else!

 

[Lupo]

Re: (no) BS Bike

I used to B.S. with Keith Code and even do an occasional ride with him. It was back in the mid 70s. A small group of us (20-25) would meet at the Griffith Park Observatory in L.A. Calif. on Sunday mornings. We were all gassed up over this new thing called"cafe racing".
I've known about counter steering since back in those days and whats funny is now I don't think about it except when I drive(yes,drive) my sidecar. When the car lifts off the ground the hack becomes a bike again and you throw in counter steer to make your turn.
I always think about Keith when I set up a front end after changing seals or something. He saw my Le Mans seals weeping and ran me through a 10 min. drill on how to align everything. I did it. It worked and I do the same routine still.

 

[RJVB]

Re: (no) BS Bike

Interesting story. Might be nice to post it here? Other stories about him too, btw.

I guess I've learnt about countersteering on my bicycle, evidently it "work" on there too, even if one can perfectly ride a (well-aligned) bicycle for long distances without holding the handlebars at all.

The funny thing about countersteering is how misappropriate the term is in normal bike (MC) riding. Countersteering is what you do while drifting, or riding trail or flattrack. On the road, what actually appears to happen is that the bike steers for you. It cannot actually be different: when the bike follows a curve the frontwheel has to be turned in the direction of the turn if adherence is to be preserved. What we call countersteering is a handlebar action that is so tiny and/or transient I have not yet been able to identify it in the recordings I had made on our instrumented bikes: it apparently is not notably different from the corrections we make continuously in order to keep on course. It becomes apparent while riding on long, winding urban roads (i.e. constant approx. 50km/h). I'm not sure exactly how I get the bike to follow the sweepers (small COG shifts do have some effect, esp. at lower speeds, but possibly I just exploit natural equilibrium shifts (*) if they're in the right direction), but when I observe what the handlebars are doing, they're clearly steering.

*) I really may, I realise, it would explain why I have this weird impression of something being "off" now that my front tyre is wearing asymmetrically (left side of course ... road camber and roundabouts... :S)

 

[SgtCrump]

Gee....I guess physics in France are different than here in the Nevada desert. If I turn my handlebars in the direction of the turn at more than about 10 mph, I end up on my head in the ditch. I've read the theorys about body steering, and tried to make it work. It works very slightly, only because a motorcycle is hinged at the steering head. If I use my lower body and legs to push the bike I am just causing a slight countersteer, but not enough for a real curve. It works a little more on a bicycle, because the contact patch is so tiny, it resists much less. You still won't be making any serious curves.

As for my handlebars......they are under strict instructions NOT to steer without my input!!!

 

[oldmanjob]

Very interesting. Being old as I am I have a problem sometimes trying to understand simple concepts from the written word or even videos. I have spent hours looking at video's on counter steering and most of them are clear as mud. I am a hands on type of person, so my next endeavor is to find someone to show me hands on. I am constantly wondering when I watch these different videos, if I was counter steering in the proper manor would my Bonnie be one piece today.

 

[RJVB]

Sgt: is it possible I wasn't clear? I'm not claiming physics works differently here. What I'm claiming is that, transient effects aside, the front wheel HAS to be turned in the direction of the turn, by an amount that depends on speed, curvature, roll angle, chassis geometry, tyre profile and pressure. If it isn't, you'd lose adherence or at the very least hear tyre screech. I'm betting that if somehow you managed to keep roll angle at 0 (bike vertical; you'd have to hang off quite a bit to the side to get the combined COG where it has to be), you'd find the front wheel (and handlebars) turned over the angle where they'd be on a hack, for the same curve.

For me, that's physics, and most of the time, the angles are so small you hardly notice them other than as a pressure on the hand inside the turn. Except when you look for it, at lower speeds like in town as I described.

For me, it's also the reason we're pretty damn lucky that there's another way to turn a bike, because otherwise we'd have a lot of difficulty keeping control at speeds above approx. 90km/h.

And I'm good at creative laziness. I find it wonderful if my bike steers for me, as long as she goes where I happen to be wanting to go :ugeek:

BTW, I don't think it's very common to hear a motorcycle front tyre screech, is it?

 

[Roblatt]

Is Mr Code the guy who heads up the Californian Super bike school? I'm pretty sure he is. Anyway, I did one of his courses at Phillip Island a couple of years ago (under franchise, not him personally). At the time I thought I was out of my league and thick because I couldn't grasp the concepts. But with time and practice on the roads, I'm a far better rider than I could have been left to learn by myself.

Those methods really do work. I'm glad I did the course and will probably do another soon.

My opinion only.

Robert

 

[Roblatt]

My question answered, I just watched the video.

Note to self, look before posting!

 

[john zibell]

Gee....I guess physics in France are different than here in the Nevada desert. If I turn my handlebars in the direction of the turn at more than about 10 mph, I end up on my head in the ditch. I've read the theorys about body steering, and tried to make it work. It works very slightly, only because a motorcycle is hinged at the steering head. If I use my lower body and legs to push the bike I am just causing a slight countersteer, but not enough for a real curve. It works a little more on a bicycle, because the contact patch is so tiny, it resists much less. You still won't be making any serious curves.

As for my handlebars......they are under strict instructions NOT to steer without my input!!!

Yes you will, just press out on the hand grip in the direction you want to go. That is, to go right, press the right hand grip. Works every time. It is called counter steering because you point the front wheel left to go right. The physics of a single track vehicle is you have to get it to lean to turn. The fastest way to say go right is to steer left, it makes the bike lean to the right, so you go right. Confused yet?

 

[RJVB]

I think the Sgt meant he can't *steer* above 10mph. That's a bit low as estimations go, but I don't think you have to explain countersteering to him

 

[oldmanjob]

You may not have to explain counter steer to the Sgt, but this old man is all ears and confused. :unsure:

 

[bobw]

The lean/no lean VS countersteering is muddied by semantics, button pushing and a video that does little to clarify proper technique using more than one muscle group to control a motorcycle. Using your body to assist has been described as "free steering" by Reg Pridmore and having taken his class a couple of times and applying the techniques, I can say it helps smooth your transitions. It is painful to watch a rider trying to improperly "steer" around a corner and/or just lean in an attempt to negotiate a curve as it works against the vehicle dynamics and/or does not provide enough direction change as needed to negotiate the curve. This obviously is where countersteering makes a bike respond by influencing the direction change, but by also leaning/loading the inside peg/slide your butt over type body movements, you will greatly assist that transition happen. It will also allow the larger groups of muscles in your core and legs to do some of the work VS just your upper body. This is much the same as when relaxing your upper body while gently hugging the tank with your legs in severe cross winds, you work more smoothly with your bike. You don't have to be dragging a knee to achieve this and if your arms are tired after riding in tight technical sections, you're doing it wrong. This is a topic that is difficult to explain in a few sentences (even without insults :whistle: ). I would suggest taking a class offered by any of these first rate instructors and you will see they offer great tips and their bottom line is much the same as vehicle dynamics are not subjective. It is a blast to ride with and learn from these folks and it will make for a better rider regardless the type of bike or riding style you enjoy on the road.

 

[SgtCrump]

First of all, let me be perfectly clear.....I'm not arguing with anyone, especially the experts. Besides if somebody said sticking their tongue out at a 45 degree angle, in the direction they want to go, helps them ride, then, more power to them.
I understand, and use countersteering at all times. I have studied the "body-steering" technique, and had little luck, on top of being physically worn out after not very much of it. A few years ago, one of the popular magazines did an article about a "track day", wherein a 70's era racer, and a 90's era racer compared styles and found that the older style of staying with the bike was just as efficient, making it more of a preference issue. To me, body steering is simple driving nails with a sledge hammer. I find countersteering to be so easy and precise that I don't need to move around on the seat. But, whatever works for ya!

Counter-steering works so well that I can do it with the "teacup" grip, that is with two fingers on each bar, and the rest daintily raised in the air. Actually, I can countersteer with just my right hand, and not even touch the left bar. I've ridden in winds that kept me at a 45 degree angle, and all it required was a slight pressure on the handlebar, counter-steering into the wind, that is wasn't tiring at all. The only time my upper body does anything is when I stop to eat.

Yes the way you steer a bike does depend on the speed. At very low speed, you do turn "into" the turn, but at road speed you quickly have to change to "counter" steering, turning AWAY from the desired direction of travel. As has been discovered at Bonneville, you can eventually reach a high enough speed that you go back to turning "into" the turn. I've not tried it......

I had a convincing demonstration of counter-steering once, when I towed my Eldo with my car. I made a rig that held the front axle of the bike to the back bumper of the car. When I backed out of my driveway, and turned the car, the bike lay over almost all the way on it's side......in the opposite direction. When I saw that in the rear-view mirror I about ruined my underwear. But when I looked at it up close I realized....it was just countersteering backwards.

There is no magic to any of this. The idea that the bike "knows" which direction to go is just muscle memory. If you doubt that, watch a newbie try to turn a corner......they almost can't do it. Once we ride for a while, we give inputs we don't even realize to make things happen.

 

[RJVB]

The problem here is that we do not have enough vocabulary that is defined precisely enough for all of us. Each of us have their own set of ideas of how they ride.

I always like to compare this to violin playing. There too, multiple schools exist, each with their own theories and descriptions of how one holds and controls the bow. A few decades ago, researchers did an EMG study, and found that there were only minor differences between all those different approaches.

Our motorised police (gendarmes) here get a very thorough (and permanent) training. They are taught to form a unity with the bike (i.e. don't try to hang off), and use countersteering only.

But, I'll repeat: countersteering is not a proper term. You don't put the handlebars at say 2º (and keep them there to the left to take a given turn to the right. You exert a certain counterclockwise torque on the handlebars. As Sgt points out, this works when barely holding the grips (at least at speed): of course in that case you'll hardly notice if the front wheel turns in the direction of the turn as a result...

 

[john zibell]

Many years ago I wrote a magazine article about all of this. Basically both Code and Pridmore are correct. The no BS bike rigs the test since as the attached article explains that one point must remain fixed in relation to movement of the other. By removing a "hold" on the handlebar, no "body" steering can be accomplished.

 

[RJVB]

I'll have a look at the pdf, but as far as I know at this moment, body steering works mostly because while leaning off the bike's RHS, you pull on the left handlebar and/or push on the right. In other words, you could just as well push on the RHS handlebar at once

What can be seen in the video is that COG variations do modify the trajectory. It's a pity we don't see the guy hanging off as if he was deep in a turn on a track, so we could see just how little one accomplishes.

Interestingly, I had a chat with a colleague about all this earlier. He explained how he does "body steering" on his Zodiac: he blocks the engine at a given speed and straight ahead, and then takes place up front. To turn right, he just shifts his weight to the right.
This works because of the boats width, the fact it probably is considerably lighter than an average MC, and the absence of gyroscopic moments that will counter any roll attempt.

 

[SgtCrump]

But, I'll repeat: countersteering is not a proper term. You don't put the handlebars at say 2º (and keep them there to the left to take a given turn to the right. You exert a certain counterclockwise torque on the handlebars. As Sgt points out, this works when barely holding the grips (at least at speed): of course in that case you'll hardly notice if the front wheel turns in the direction of the turn as a result...

I think I understand where you are coming from.....but I'm sticking to the term "countersteer". On the road you do countersteer, but only enough to make the bike respond. Then you are basically at neutral, although real world riding means continually correcting. I think riding in a heavy crosswind proves that it is countersteering, because you do literally have to hold in a certain amount of countersteer to go straight. If you go behind a hill, without releasing the countersteer, you end up in the other lane, or off the road.

It reminds me of my Navy days, when I was aboard a 400 foot destroyer. When you have the helm, you steer into a turn, but then have to countersteer some to "meet" the helm, in order to go straight on the course you are seeking. It is like riding a motorcycle in very slow motion.

As for "OldMan".....not sure if anything I've said helps. It boils down to the two contact patches, front and rear, stay lined up normally, but when you are rolling, and turn the front patch to the side, the natural tendency is for the bike to "fall over" because the inertia is pushing forward. That's why I gave the example of the bike bolted to the back of the car. The forks were fastened rigidly upright, so to turn the rest of the bike had to lay down.

You turn the front contact patch to the left, so the bike then wants to fall over to the right. Obviously, if it turns too far, you highside. But the movement can be so slight as to be imperceptible. The bike falls into the turn, and you stop the input, or only input enough to make corrections to your chosen course.

 

[GTM®]

Or reverse-counter in this instance...

 

[bobw]

Everyone is saying basically the same thing. A simple test to see that weight shift,leaning, loading the inside peg,etc., whatever you may call a little "body english" has an impact on how a bike turns is to recall the last time a passenger leaned opposite you in a corner. If you haven't had this happen, try it with someone that you can trust to do this in a controlled manner. The two things, countersteering and "moving your body" with the bike, are not exclusive. Much like Navy days, horses or even Zodiacs, you want to assist and contol the change, not push here and then react/catch up to the change, it's like dancing when you work together. SMOOTH is always better and safer when two tiny patches of rubber have much to do and helping them do their job better comes from the added stability we can provide in maximum transition/traction situations. All these boats and such are basically stable at rest so they are not exactly apples to apples in the motorcycle platform analogies. oldman was questioning what he was doing and if some other technique would help him, that was the scope of my reply and no desire to stir the pot. Safe travels everyone!


Cheers

 

[SgtCrump]

Or reverse-counter in this instance... :silly:

Actually, Todd, your photo clearly shows the result of countersteer. The only difference is that you are using it to set the bike up for "throttle steering" , aka "drifting". Your posture is an exagerrated example of counter steer. You have turned the front wheel to the right, causing the bike to fall to the left, in order to more easily get the rear tire to slide out. If you were on a curving road, you would have made a smaller input, and the bike would have turned left.

I would defer to you for the explanation of why it is better to slide around the corner than just drive around it.....