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Norge clutch lever travel changing for the worse.

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by abbienormal, Nov 18, 2016.

  1. abbienormal

    abbienormal High Miler GT Famiglia

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    When I first got the 2102 Norge in March this year I bled the brakes and clutch with Motul RBF600 Dot 4 brake fluid. All was fine for quite a while. When I went on a trip a month or so ago I had to turn the clutch lever adjuster from 1, where I normally ran it to 3 to get enough clutch lever travel. It was biting with the lever about 1/4" off the bar (grip).
    I bled the system again yesterday, getting no air, and was amazed at how dark the clutch fluid was already. Today I went for a ride and moved it to 4 and still when I stopped at a light I had trouble getting it in neutral. As long as the engine is off or the bike is moving it is not a problem.
    I am thinking clutch master cylinder rebuild but looking for any other options and if anybody else has ran into this. The bike has just under 11,000 miles on it so I really don't think there should be a problem of this sort.
     
  2. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    I seem to remember a pin with set screw in the mix. The set screw may have come loose allowing the pin to move. Not sure if brake or clutch side but worth taking a look. The pin would be between the MC and lever, actuating the MC piston. BTW, Brembo no longer sells rebuild kits, replacement is now the only option.
     
  3. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    The Stelvio had an adjustable pin on the clutch lever for fine adjustments of the engagement point. They have been know to get loose and wind in. Just need to remove the lever and you will see the post that pushes into the master cylinder. That post can thread in and out. There is a grub screws (set screw) holding it at the base. See if that is your issue.

    For what it is worth, I have run Motul 5.1 since new and have never had an issue. Does not come out as black as the 4 but still needs to be changed every year or so. The 5.1 has a higher boiling point. Gives a little longer life. I run it also in my brakes.
     
  4. roadventure

    roadventure GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    Rudy,

    I have a somewhat unrelated question, but also related! Does your Norge have ABS? If so, did you find any difference in bleeding the brakes and clutch? I have been hesitant to bleed my brakes and clutch, mostly due to my ignorance about the ABS module.
     
  5. abbienormal

    abbienormal High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I just bled them normally. Plus, on my 2007 I swapped out the ABS unit for one from a totaled bike because mine always got air in the line and Guzzi would not admit it was the unit. That cured the problem and I bled it normally (pump, bleed, pump, bleed, ad infinitum). Now I have seen on here there is a company that will repair the ABS unit.
     
  6. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Sounds like the very small grub screw has come loose and the pin that operates the M/C is adjusting itself. A bit of patience and some loctite and you should be good again. Colour of fluid may indicate another problem, altogether.
     
  7. roadventure

    roadventure GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    Isn't that always the way, AFTER you need it :) Thanks for the info on bleeding the braking system with ABS. I'll need to get myself some speedbleeders for the time when I am ready and forge ahead.
     
  8. abbienormal

    abbienormal High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I finally got around to looking into this. If the adjustable pin is the problem I will be amazed. I took off the lever and went to loosen the grub screw only to find there was not one in there. I could see clear down to the threads on the pin. So then I tried to screw in the pin. I could not turn it so I applied heat. Now I have a hot pin with a twisted off flat blade screwdriver slot. Next I clamped the pin in the vice and more heat and twisted the lever assembly to loosen it. It popped loose then turned normally. No sign of Loctite. I can reuse it but I am going to see if the machinist at work can make me one out of a 6mm allen head set screw. Looks not to be too hard and an allen wrench beats a screw driver every time in my book. I'll have to find something for a grub screw also. Does anybody know the thread size offhand? Beats $165 for a new clutch lever assembly from Guzzi.
    Not sure what the correct insert position for the adjustable pin is but mine was about 1/8" (3mm) unscrewed out of the pivot pin. I am thinking it may have been unscrewed all the way which would explain the lever travel but as tight as it was I find it hard to believe it just self adjusted itself to that position in the past few rides.
     
  9. StormShearon

    StormShearon Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    The grub screw should be a 3 mm (threads) by 4 mm (long). I found some at my local Hobby Town as that size appears to be used extensively in RC models.
     
  10. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Don't think that is the problem. My pin behaved the same way. Finally got the grub screw out and with some heat and WD40 it finally loosened up but it definitely did not move.

    That pin travel sounds about right. Here is the thing with that pin, the further out it is unscrewed, the further the engagement point is from the grip when the lever position remains constant.

    When it is all the way screwed in, the engagement point move closer to the grip. Too much in and you will drag the clutch or not be able to get it in gear (depending on the lever position). Need to think of it as how far it pushes the plate out. More cylinder push, the further the plate will travel and the further the engagement point from the grip on the way back (at least that is how I rationalized it).

    You may have an issue with either the master cylinder or the slave cylinder passing. Hopefully just a matter of changing the oil, but I am fearing not. Try bleeding it again to make sure all the air is out.
     
  11. abbienormal

    abbienormal High Miler GT Famiglia

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    I had a new pin made up at work and the system still felt like no disengagement to speak of. I then got some Motul RBF600 brake fluid due to the high (594F) dry boil point and bled the system again, All seems good after a ride today.
     
  12. canuck1969

    canuck1969 GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Excellent. Sounds like some air in the line. Glad is worked out to be something simple.
     
  13. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    My opinion is that both the brake and clutch pumps are out of a bargain bin. Every bike I own and a few customers of whom I've replaced with nicer pumps (mostly RCS) holds a bleed 100% and works as it should.
     
  14. roadventure

    roadventure GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    When you use the term "pump" is this what most refer to as the master cylinder?
     
  15. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Yes, sure is.
     
  16. brodonn

    brodonn Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Hi Folks,
    My 2010 Norge lost all clutch pressure pretty rapidly and no amount of bleeding will give me any more than a couple of minutes of pressure. I am also now seeing a drip on the floor under the bike and I suspect the slave cylinder seal. Trouble is, I can't see how to access it to replace the seal (or maybe the cylinder). I would appreciate any direction you folks could give me in terms of which panels to remove, or how much stripping I have to do to get at the darn thing.
    Brian
     
  17. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    It is located at the back of the gearbox. Easiest access may be removing the swing arm so you can have good access to replace the slave cylinder. That means enough panels removed to get the pork chops off so you can remove the swing arm. This would be a good time to grease the swing arm bearings and shock linkage if you haven't already done that task. You will need the special tool to adjust the tension on the swing arm bearings at 10 Nm. BTW, the swing arm bolt is torqued to 60 Nm. There is an excellent thread in the Stelvio section on this task. It is easier on the Stelvio as you don't have to remove as much to get to the swing arm.
     
    BDS likes this.
  18. brodonn

    brodonn Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    Perfect answer, John.
    Much appreciated.
    Many thanks indeed.

    Brian
     
  19. brodonn

    brodonn Tuned and Synch'ed GT Famiglia

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    So, the clutch on what is actually my Son’s 2010 Norge began to feel odd and then lost pressure fairly suddenly. A change of fluid and a bleed was the first thing to try and it produced enough of an improvement to operate it a few times before the pressure was gone again. During those few operations there was an abnormal metallic tinkling sound while the lever was pulled back, plus some drops on the floor. Something more serious was obviously wrong so the back end was dismantled, as John suggested, and the slave cylinder removed to reveal the fact that its piston had actually been spinning, producing enough wear on both it and the bore of the cylinder body to allow fluid to flood past the seal. We used a magnet to pull out the cylinder that the slave piston acts on and that revealed the thrust bearing which was totally mashed. At the moment we’re having a problem getting the remains of the bearing out, and when that comes out we will have to check for further damage. I haven’t posted a pic before so I don’t know if the one I’m trying to post, of the mashed thrust bearing, will appear. Needless to say, the rear shock linkages were seized, although the swing arm bearings had been greased and were fine. Does anyone have a spec for this bearing? It looks like there are fewer rollers in it than I would expect. I gather that the pushrod, with bearing and bushes should all come out towards the rear but nothing's moving yet.
    Brian[​IMG]
     

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