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Norge oil pump failure?!

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by Zipster, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I think my 07 Norge has cr@pped it's oil pump. Has been running fine all winter since fixing a bad electrical short last fall. I went out to ride to work today, my normal routine of starting her up, letting her idle while I close the garage, putting on my gloves and heading off. It was about 40F, all seemed normal in the start up sequence. She was idling for max of 2 minutes (as usual), probably less, before I was ready to go. As I revved up a bit and let out the clutch, I saw the master red warning light and oil pressure icon come on and the engine stopped HARD. Although I feared the worst, I bumped the starter to see if she would go. Would not even turn over. Checked the battery voltage...13.0v, no problem but I rolled her back into the garage and plugged up the trickle charger anyway. Jumped in the car and headed off to work.
    This afternoon, I tried to start her again and although she turns over, I can hear "metallic" noises and she won't run. Stopped trying. Only diagnostic error showing is a dashboard 08M.
    10K miles on the bike, changed the oil last at 8500K with Motorex 4T 10w60. Never uses or leaks a drop, always stays about halfway up the marked area on the dipstick. Still there today. No signs of metal on the dipstick and oil looks fine. I bought her used and the warranty hit the 2-year (expiration) point last October.
    So...Guess I'll load her onto the trailer and head for Moto-Nexus to try to get MG-USA to cover the work out of warranty. Crazy to have major engine failure at 10K miles. Do I have any hope?
    Anyone else here had oil pump fail on 1200 motor? Was it Bill H that had this happen? Can't find the old posts on it. Would like to leave the oil in it to show MG dealer/mech the full state of affairs. Any thoughts on my diagnosis or other things i can check short of draining the oil?
    Thanks- Rob
     
  2. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Ugh. Yes, it was Bill Hagan. PM me for his contact info if you'd like.
     
  3. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    It doesn't sound promising. I don't believe it to be a design problem otherwise everything built with the *new* oil pump first used in the Norges would be shitting themselves but it does sound as if there may of been a bad batch of pumps. Is the bike still in Warranty? I hope so. If not it might be worth pressing for some sort of coverage anyway as the miles are low and it is a previously documented problem.

    Where are you? Your profile doesn't say.

    Pete
     
  4. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I'm in western North Carolina, about 100 miles from Moto Nexus. Warranty expired in October 09, 2 years from original owner purchase. I will certainly be trying to get MG-USA to cover it. It is an early production model...October 06.
     
  5. frank73x89

    frank73x89 Just got it firing!

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    Remove and open up the oil filter(got the proper filter wrench?). If there is copper, iron (magnetic) or other soft gray or shiny material, it'll most likely need a crank regrind as well as associated new parts for a rebuild not forgetting an oil pump if it is the original cause of seizure.
     
  6. draidt

    draidt GT Reference GT Contributor

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    It would be interesting to find out when Bill Hagan's Norge was built, I have heard of 2 other demo Norge's in Europe crapping their oil pumps. Mine is an 07 with a build date of May 07 hopefully I have dodged the curse, I know it is of no consolation to you ZIP, BTW we have met last year at Moto Nexuis when they had the open house. I definitely would try and get it covered and jump through hoops and what not, don't give up with a quick rejection.

    Good Luck !

    Dan
     
  7. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    This is disheartening for sure. Time for a GuzziTech Oil Pressure Kit I guess.
     
  8. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Sadly, only about 1 second elapsed between the warning light and oil pressure icon illuminating and the engine stopping. I didn't have time to release the throttle and flip the kill switch. No hints of any pressure problems before this; no flickering lights, no crud or debris in the oil.
     
  9. draidt

    draidt GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Todd, if you go ahead with this and use your Norge for a test prototype I am in.
     
  10. GTM®

    GTM® Administrator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    That I will Dan, and TIA. Watch for my separate post shortly on it... check in there/vote as well.
     
  11. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    The problem is that the oil pressure sender only works at about 2PSI. It won't tell you of impending doom effectively. By the time it comes on, if the engine is running under any sort of load, the damage is already occuring. If as we suspect this has been a catastrophic failure of the pump rotor it could of happened at any time. You're just lucky it wasn't while you were overtaking a string of cars at 90MPH.

    Pete
     
  12. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    Very sorry to hear of this, Rob.

    My Norge's oil pump failed in early July 2008, at end of 1100-mile trip with wife; only luck kept that from being a high-speed seizure on the road, with catastrophic consequences. I figure my estate would be cashing the significant settlement check about now! :eek:hmy:

    Mine was in warranty, but I shipped Norge from Atlanta to MPH at my expense ($600), then added more to that bill by flying down to retrieve it. The great Havens fixed it, but, as a practical matter, that "fix" required an almost complete rebuild. As I recall, MPH said that oil pump outer rotor broke, lost oil pressure, smoked rod bearings, connecting rods, crankshaft. :woohoo:

    VERY strongly recommend that you not get "indignant" with Piaggio tho you have every right to be. Call or e/m to discuss that piece off-line; 404.808.8486 (mobile) or by email at <wrhagan at earthlink.net>.

    Bill

    P.S. FWIW, 14 or so K later, the Norge runs like cheetah in heat. What a joy. And, the red light hasn't so much as flickered since, much less the oil can.
     
  13. draidt

    draidt GT Reference GT Contributor

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    Bill do you have a Build date on your Norge ?


    Yes a little honey when talking to Piaggio will help.
     
  14. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    Dan,

    Will check and correct if wrong, but pretty sure my Norge was lovingly assembled by grappa-swilling Mandellans in December 2006.

    Bill
     
  15. RandyP

    RandyP Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Dan Raidt just called me and asked me to check on my Norge build date. Mine with 23K+ miles was built in 02- 2007.
    This oil pump failure issue is a MAJOR concern. I'd like M.G.N.A. to be contacted, I'll volunteer if no dealers come forth to get a change point on the corrective action. This can easily be consided a safety issue as a failure at road speed could result in a loss of vehicle control. :x

    RandyP
     
  16. Bill Hagan

    Bill Hagan GT Reference GT Famiglia

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    I was wrong.

    No, not about the grappa, the build date. :p

    Plate says: "11/2006."

    VIN, FWIW, is ZGULPU00X7M112305.

    Bill
     
  17. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    VIN of subject bike here is ZG.....112210. So if yours was built between mine and Bill's in Nov 06 or prior, be afraid!
     
  18. bobw

    bobw Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Serious failure, glad it happened without any other complications! JMO, if you are going to ask for a Good Faith repair, I would not cut open the filter, etc. When they drain the oil, I would have an oil sample kit handy and capture some at that time if you wanted your own analysis done.

    If it were me, Steve at Moto Nexus would be a top choice for repairs regardless warranty work or not.

    Good Luck!
     
  19. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Zipster: IIRC, Bill's Norge had the warning light issue at startup, and so had a mate's here who had a very similar failure like you did (no engine rebuild necessary for him, btw). One hypothesis is that the broken rotor in the pump means oil pressure doesn't built up as quickly as it should, though once "up to speed", everything is within the working ranges.

    Piaggio *are* aware of the issue, but it cannot hurt I presume to point that out to them, politely. I've attached the concluding article from a year-old Moto & Loisirs long-duration test, almost 50km after which the Norge was disassembled according to (sadly) mostly forgotten traditions. It too had the broken rotor issue, clearly something it'd run with for a long time. There's a 'box' with a reaction from Piaggio France. I'll be uploading the Dutch version, hope you won't be needing a translation! :whistle:
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Thanks Rene, I appreciate the article. My French is rusty but much better than my Dutch! I have a friend who has a translation service company and speaks French and Dutch, so I may call on him. I plan to contact Piaggio today.
    A bientot- Rob
     

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