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Norge oil pump failure?!

Discussion in 'BNS12 Reference Topics/Recalls' started by Zipster, Mar 16, 2010.

  1. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Good luck!
     
  2. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    My understanding of that last part is, according to Moto Guzzi, as the pump will continue to function properly for quite a long time even if the outer part is broken they see no reason to issue a recall notice.


    Bill, my understanding of the VIN is that the numeral before the letter M denotes the year of manufacture.
    Plate says: "11/2006."

    VIN, FWIW, is ZGULPU00X7M112305.
     
  3. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    As the pump apparently continues to function, and as long as failures are isolated. One would hope that they do issue a recall if failures increase...
     
  4. mbtech

    mbtech Just got it firing!

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    I just hope I have a bad oil pressure sending unit as I started with my post a couple of weeks ago. I am going to the dealer this week to have a gauge installed to check pressure, like I said, hope it is just the sender and not the pump. If it is the pump hopefully Piagio will help as I'm 6 mo out of warranty and have 40,800 miles.
     
  5. guzzibob

    guzzibob GT Reference

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    Randy, why were you asked? Did yours fail? If not, looks like all that we have listed here is zipster's, # 112210 built 10/06 & Bill Hagen's, #112305, built 11/06, curiously & perhaps reassuringly very close together. For comparison, my still very live Norge @ 20,000 miles is model year '07, build date 6/07 and serial #113735.

    So, calling all dealers (MPH, MI, whoever), service agents (Pete) or anyone else with personal detailed knowledge of these failures:

    1)Any later or ealier than the above range? If so, what ser#/build dates? Model year is not really good enough, but if all you got...
    2)Has Piaggio issued any info as to what range (if not all Norge's/1200's/CARC bikes) may be involved?
     
  6. guzzibob

    guzzibob GT Reference

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    I don't think so. According to the very spieific chart I printed out from autocheck.com:

    Z-where manufactured (I presume Z stands for Italy)
    GU-the manufacturer
    LPU00-vehicle info, brand, engine size & type
    X-security code
    7-model year-which could easily be, say, '07 for a bike made in late '06 as here.
    M-plant at which vehicle was assembled (Mandello?)
    112305-vehicle serial number
     
  7. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Well I merely quote from Moto Guzzi's own manual, not a third party one.
     
  8. mbtech

    mbtech Just got it firing!

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    I just got back home from the dealer today. Here"s what we know. Oil pump looks fine, no breakage on the outer rotor. Oil pressure is 28 psi at idle. Dealer has called technical for specs and was told that they don't know. Not a very good answer. I still want to add a pressure gauge to monitor myself. The dealer wants to check pressure once he gets parts/gaskets to reassemble front cover. He wants to check pressure after riding for 10-15 miles. Thinks the pressure relief valve could be a culprit or a blockage in oil passage. I thought most engines would have at least 60 psi at 1000 rpm or more.
     
  9. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Maybe not the oil pump???

    After a couple of weeks of testing the bike under various conditions, the guys at Moto Nexus can't find anything wrong. No error codes, no indication of oil pump failure, oil pressure is fine as indicated through the Navigator (Does it give direct PSI view?). It actually started up. First time they started it, they said it seemed that the starter was "dragging" on the engine. The mech said he has started it no less than 30 times since with absolutely no issues. Road test is fine as well. Battery is fine, indicates 13.1v.
    Current theory is a non-repeatable failure of the starter solenoid to disengage or over-engaging (?). I suppose it would give the symptoms of stalling the engine, not turning over and noises of mechanical resistance. Mech said that since there are no codes and the starter is essentially a modular unit, not much to check. I really don't want to replace the starter but not sure what else to do.
    No signs of metal on inspections of oil via the dipstick. They're going to drain the oil and I'll ask them to get a sample tested for metal.
    Should I have them inspect the oil pump? How many hours of labor should that take? I'm 100 miles away so I can't just pop over to look over their shoulders and am trying to give them some reasonable direction. They are competent mechs. Any other suggestions?
    Rob
     
  10. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    When I had a gauge on a T-3, she would Idle at about 15 psi and running (over 3,000 rpm) at about 40-45 psi. I know a different pump, but all the same not that high.
     
  11. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    Problem is that the oil pump is before the filter so any particulate matter will be caught by the filter. Also since the pump failures have all been due to the rotor shattering it is unlikely that there would be any warning apart from sudden, atastrophic, failure.

    As for oil pressure? Nagrivator simply looks at the signal from the oil pressure warning switch which works at about 3 PSI! It can't tell anything other than if the switch is working. When you get an error code thrown up by the dash and it is confirmed as a stored error by Navigator or Axone unless it is a 'Current' fault it is usually down to the oil filter not being filled prior to installation. As the motor spins after and oil and filter change if the filter hasn't been pre-filled it obviously has to be filled by the oil pump prior to filling the galleries in the crankcase and crank and reaching the oil pressure sender at the top of the block. This will take a couple of seconds and that is long enough to trigger the low pressure warning. After the galleries and filter are filled the OBD will recognise that everuything is peachy again, but will keep a 'Stored' error in the dash which will be read by Navigator next time its plugged in.

    Giving advice on something like this is VERY difficult. It is indisputable that there HAVE been a few pump failures. Like the tappet failures in the early 8V engines it would seem to be a QC issue rather than a design issue. As far as I know these failures have ONLY occured on a few Norges, none of the other 'Post 1200' bikes, (For want of a better description?) which all use the same trochoidal oil pump have suffered failures that I have heard about and I keep my ears pretty well pricked up for incipient problems. That includes post 2007 Griso 11's, Breva 12's, Sport 1200's, post 2008 (?) Norges, Bellagios and probably Calvins too.

    Chances are it's nothing. Problem is if there IS an issue not addressing it could have catastrophic consequences. Getting at the oil pump on a Norge is a pain in the arse, not a huge job, but big enough as you have to take off a whole host of crap to get the timing chest open, mostly plastic and junk but also the alternator etc. There'd be a days work in it at least I'd think so it won't be cheap to check. As I said. really impossible to advise......

    Pete
     
  12. mbtech

    mbtech Just got it firing!

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    Well, we found the problem of my warning light and oil pressure icon (Aladdin's lamp) coming on. After checking the oil pump and measuring the oil pressure with a gauge, I had as low as 18 psi. We removed the oil pan to inspect the oil ports and plumbing and found the gasket between the flange and block had split, causing oil to dump back into the sump. Replaced the gasket and reassembled engine, recheck oil pressure and now reads 48 psi.
     

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  13. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Is that a common part to fail? Would seem so, if they had one in stock, no?
     
  14. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    Nah. The gasket is the same one used on all the earlier Cali type engines where you need to remove the sump to get at the oil filter. They are almost infinitely re-useable with care. Looks like it was either damaged before installation at the factory or the bolts that hold the whole *Intermediate* sump plate and gubbins on were incorrectly tightened. Don't worry Rene. It's a rare failure. Go out and ride :D

    Pete
     
  15. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Heh, don't worry Pete, I'm not *that* paranoid. I just know Murphy too well "indeed, it's a rare part to fail, nothing at all ... it's just not in stock for another 3 months" ;)
     
  16. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    Rene? Here in bumfuck at the arse end of the earth I can get a replacement cylinder head delivered, (By Trireme and pack mule!) in three weeks. How is it that your dealer in Yurp can't get anything for three months?? The mind boggles.

    Look, I know Guzzis get bad press for stuff and sometimes its even justified. Look at the embuggerance about Muzz's gearbox bearing, (I got another email today from the importer saying it's still on back-order. When it arrives I'm going to have the bloody thing gold plated and put on a sodding plinth in an airtight container!!) but generally I can get *most* vital stuff overnight. If the importer doesn't have it? I get on to Greg or Todd or one of the other *Known* suppliers and get it sent from overseas. when the warranty item does arrive I simply stock it or send it back with an explanation and I've yet to be refused a credit on such an item. Our importer at least seems to realize the value of 'Gittin' 'er done'. The only knock backs I get are from the bloody factory for stupid little shit!

    The Norge is essentially a good unit. Yes, the plastic is crap and there may be a few niggling ancilliary issues but the main motive and road-holding package is pretty much bulletproof. You invariably hear all the horror stories on web boards and there are certainlt lots of ways that stuff can be improved but constantly worrying that every time an individual with a computer and web access has a problem it means that your bike is going to shit the bed is doing nobody any good. Least of all you. I suggest now spring has arrived you tell your work to go fuck themselves and go for a nice two week tour to somewhere fantastic like Scotland or Portugal. The Norge will love you for it!!!!

    Pete
     
  17. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    Pete, please :lol: I fully agree with you, and I'm NOT worrying about my bike. Even the gear/CARC oil leak under the swing arm seems to have been an isolated event, levels are fine, and I'm not seeing any new oil for the moment.

    I'm willing to have faith in Piaggio's efforts to improve after-sales support, but at the same time, I've been waiting for more than a year for the RHS switchgear thingy (if I hadn't paid about 100€ for it, I'd just put some goo in the gap to replace the bit of black chatterton that's been holding the water out for a year), and my LHS pannier (because despite of what "they" seemed to think, a RHS one won't fit on the left ;) ). My dealer has been good apart from these 2 bits, I fear he's a bit tired of having to get after-sales to do their work properly. Dealers here have to deal with Piaggio Italy directly (Piaggio France is a bit of a farce), they don't have a corporate structure of national dimensions to put pressure, I think that must change things a bit.

    You can't imagine how much I'd love to let my work go fuck themselves at the moment ... but I guess I better suppress that urge until recession is over ;) I have enough free days anyway :woohoo:
     
  18. Matteo

    Matteo Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Greetings, After a long week of riding, I was on my way home and tried to start my 07 Norge and all I got was a slow short attempt at starting. I put a socket on the nut under the rubber cap on the alternator to spin the motor and what is usually an easy turn with a socket was extremely difficult, I could only turn it with a long handle ½ ratchet. I had done an oil and filter change 5 days prior with a white filter I got from MI and 10-60 Agip SG synthetic. The bike ran strong all week, on the 4th day I had an oil light at start and checked the oil which was at the bottom notch on my dipstick so I added enough to get it ½ inch higher (cold). The next day after riding 2 hours the oil light illuminated again and the dipstick was dry, (no visible leaks) I added ¾ of a liter and got it to the full mark on the dipstick (hot). Rode incident free for 4 more hours, stopped for lunch and couldn't get the bike to start when I tried to leave, just labored cranks. Checked the oil and it was full. Oil pump???? Prior to this I had the occasional lingering oil light but always went out before long.

    Regards

    Matt Manfredi
     
  19. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    This sounds a lot like what happened to a mate here in France, except that he had no discernable oil loss that he knows of, but did have the warning light remaining on for up to 10 minutes at times. He took the bike in last week, and the last thing I heard on Saturday was that his engine was locked up, despite having enough oil in the sump.
     
  20. RandyP

    RandyP Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Todd,
    I'm still waiting for feedback on the oil pressure guage for the Norge. The one I engineered for my Quota and covered in Greg Benders Quota site is working great and I have had NO issues...no leaks no nothing! BTW the Quota oil pressure at start up and run up to 3000 RPM is 70 PSIG. When max engine temperature is reached the pressure drops to 60 PSIG.

    Please up date us on your Norge proposal

    Randy
     

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