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Norge stalling at low idle

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by Zipster, Aug 1, 2009.

  1. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    My 07 Norge, she not running so good. For the last few weeks, she doesn't want to stay running after starting up and tends to stall out anytime I let the revs drop to idle. Last had valves adjusted, TPS set and TBS balanced < 3K miles ago. Runs fine at speed, smooth and nothing out of balance. The last couple times it has stalled, the service light has come on for a few minutes.
    This morning I neaded over to the closest dealer (100 miles away) to get her checked out. Also happened to stumble into all the folks from the Blue Ridge rally there. The fairly new dealer has the Navigator, so they hooked it up and checked her out. Loaded a new map, cleared the service code indicating a stepper motor problem, and I took her for a spin. Still stalling. Back into the shop to adjust the injection, and the mech noticed the voltage on the (or one of the, is there one for each side?) throttle position sensors was bouncing all over. So, conclusion is bad sensor not allowing to set the TPS correctly. He bumped up the idle setting, and they promised to order the part. I headed home with a still poorly running bike, but not stalling out. All the way home, she glared at me with her evil red service light. Also fuel mileage dropped off from the normal indicated 45ish to 31.
    Anybody heard of the TPS failing? The mech tends to suspect the TPS and not the stepper motor.
    Thanks in advance- Rob
     
  2. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    Uh? if the diagnostic tool indicates there is a stepper motor issue and the bike is refusing to idle? just call me Mr.Stupid but I'd think there might be a stepper motor issue??

    Other obvious things would be too tight valve clearances not allowing the valves to close properly, (And if the inlets aren't seating there will be considerable force being applied to the butterflies when the piston is on the compression stroke. Could that be what is causing the TPS setting to jump about?).

    Loading up another map is not going to address a problem like this. if it has previously run fine with whatever map was in it? if everything else is good it will STILL run fine with that map.

    As for 'Bumping-up' the idle setting? I hope this wasn't done by messing with the idle stop screw.

    Pete
     
  3. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    I agree with Pete, but I've been hearing about a slew of TPS failures recently, on V11, California and the latest on a Breva 1100. Those are presumably all different components, so I'm NOT saying there's a pattern, just that they CAN fail.

    However, in all cases, the symptoms mentioned did not include idle problems, but rather short interruptions to the fuel injection, at speed.
     
  4. guzzi jon

    guzzi jon High Miler GT Contributor

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    check the valves first, sounds like their too tight
     
  5. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Appreciate the input; I asked because I don't think the mech is headed the right direction.

    I'm suspicious of the stepper motor fault as well, especially given the failure to establish idle when starting. Think I'll have them order and install a stepper motor, check valves and then reset all. Can always replace the TPS if the voltage variance continues. Of course, I didn't expect the new map to solve the stalling, but just had not had a new map installed since owning the bike.

    I mentioned the suddenly decreased mileage because I'm concerned he made a less than desirable adjustment to increase the idle. Seems to be running very rich. Power at higher revs is off slightly. It indicated 45mpg avg on the 100-mile trip to the shop, 31 on the way home.

    Crikey, I don't have any other dealer options within a reasonable distance, can't troubleshoot the daggum thing without an Axone/Navigator. Would love to be self sufficient. Would I be able to diagnose a stepper or TPS fault with a VDSTS?

    Rob
     
  6. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    I think the VDSTS allows you to check errors, but you can also list them through the dash computer, via the diag menu (dealer code 28315 for the Norge, in order to get in).

    I think the idle was adjusted by setting the TPS to too high a value, making the ECU think your throttle is always more open than it really is. That explains the mileage and richness.
     
  7. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Yes, I checked the dianostics menu but it doesn't indicate any errors now in either the ECU or dashbaord sections. I had the dash SERVICE lights on yesterday intermittently on the way home, but now no codes?
    Just took it out and got the SERVICE light again after running for a few minutes. Also stalled out while idling with clutch in and approaching a stop. While idling, revs bounce around much more than previously. TPS problem makes some sense but maybe stepper motor too??
     
  8. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    The bike is not shutting off, which might prevent errors from being stored, is it?

    Last possibility: dashboard or ECU gone rotten. Has happened, but it's really the last thing one would think of, usually.
     
  9. DanR

    DanR Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Won't blocking off the air intake of the stepper motor take it out of the equation as some have done to stop the erratic idle. I and met you at the dealer's yesterday before you had the work done. The new map has worked well in my Norge, seems to start up easier when cold and the fluctuating idling has ceased and ran great today coming back from the NC rally half in a miserable driving rain through the Blue Ridge mountains.

    Keep us posted and it was nice meeting you.

    Dan
     
  10. jdgretz

    jdgretz Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Mine has had the opposite problem - Service light on and high idle (2000RPM). Suspect stepper motor issues. Lately (the last two or three weeks) the problem has vanished - no light and the idle is back down to 900-1000. I'm at a loss, but happy. Mileage has gone up substantially for me. Like you, no codes in the diagnostics or using VDSTS while the bike was not running. Running, I was able to find a diagnostic error 50, but the code was not stored and disappeared as well with the service light turning itself off.

    Curiouser, and curiouser. :blink:

    jdg
     
  11. azccj

    azccj Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    Do you still have the charcoal canister on your bike? Last year my Norge started having an erratic idle, it would clime then fall but never stalled. I removed charcoal canister and most of the related tubing and this cured the idle problem for my bike.
     
  12. ncassidy

    ncassidy Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    My 07 has a high idle once in awhile and then it will settle down. At a standstill, I will put it in gear and let the clutch out with the front brake engaged to lower the idle. Couple of times that worked, other times it made no difference. Eventually the idle goes back to normal, so i haven't worried about it much. Almost like these bikes are built with a mind of their own.
     
  13. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Interesting variety of symptoms, sounds like an unstable tuning system they gave us.
    Dan- good to meet you as well. He did load the new map and it didn't help my idle problem. Did seem to get rid of the decel popping, or that could be that he also pushed it into a richer condition with the "idle adjustment."
    I do still have the canister installed and have been thinking of getting rid of it when the warranty runs out in October. I've been trying my best to leave the drivetrain stock while under warranty. Now I'm thinking of jumping on Todd's PCV dealio.
    Even while running the bike today and getting the service light, I checked diag function with the bike running and no codes were displayed!?
    I think I'm going to have them replace the stepper motor and TPS under warranty, rebalance all, then go home and remove the canister.
    The mech also said he had heard that some folks were "bypassing" the stepper motor and he thinks it is a really bad idea.
    He seems like a straight-up guy but my impression is that he's still learning about Guzzis. Also has some help from an experienced Guzzi guy that just came on board from Myers Motos.

    Rob
     
  14. pete roper

    pete roper GT Godfather!

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    Yup, some people have been taking the stepper out and tuning 'em like an 'old 'un'. I personally can't see the need but there agaion I haven't had any customers for whom this has been a terrible problem.

    while the stepper isn't I suppose 'Neccessary' it should be self compensating for atmospheric pressure changes and stuff and a steady idle is good.

    pete
     
  15. motobob

    motobob Cruisin' Guzzisti

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    I had the tb's sync'd and tps reset and new map done on my Norge a couple of weeks ago and the first thing the Mechanic said was he would disconect my charcoal canister as he has had problems in the past trying to tune everything. He feels there are indications of excess gas fumes(more than the canister can handle) being sucked back through the system and causing erratic behavior.
    Bob
     
  16. GrahamNZ

    GrahamNZ High Miler

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    Zipster

    How did the mechanic "bump up the idle?"
     
  17. Zipster

    Zipster Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Shame on me...but I don't know. It was a bit chaotic around the shop with the rally folks in and out and nearing closing time, and I had been there much longer than intended. I'm going to call tomorrow to find out the details and talk about next steps, closed today. Whatever he did, it had the negative effects of poor mileage and power loss at higher revs. He had the Navigator hooked up for a long time while he worked on setting the fluctuating TPS.

    Rob
     
  18. Herb

    Herb Just got it firing!

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    I was just browsing the forum and came across this thread. It prompted me to register so that I could wade into this conversation.

    I have an 07 Norge with 22k that has just developed this same stalling issue. It began about 2k ago and was intermittent, stalling only on hot days (90+) in traffic. Now it stalls whenever fully warmed no matter the ambient temperature or whether in town or on the road.

    I guess a little history would be useful here.... The bike had an erratic, high idle from new. At 2k I removed the evap cannister and things improved significantly. At 5k, I also took the stepper motor out of play by plugging it's air intake hose. I also replaced the stock muffler with a Mistral at that time. After that, starting and idling were steady and reliable and remained so until now. I've just completed a full service and valves, TB sync, and TPS are properly set. I have checked thoroughly for air leaks in both intake and exhaust and found none. Using the VDST, I have run checks on all of the sensors supported by that software and all except the stepper motor are fine. The VDST returns a "not ready" when checking the stepper. That's no surprise since it was giving me trouble from the beginning and has not been in use for over 15k anyway. But...should I consider replacing it and putting it back into service? Is the lack of stepper function what is causing this new stalling issue? Why is it showing up now after so many miles without it? Oh, almost forgot, coincidental to the onset of the stalling, my gas mileage has also risen about 4-6 mpg. So it seems to be running leaner.

    Any thoughts?

    Thanks,
    Herb
     
  19. RJVB

    RJVB GT Reference

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    any chance it's getting less fuel than the ECU intends? Is it a slow stall (the ECU shuts off the engine if revs fall under 800rpm for too long)? You're not tanking fuel with more than 5% ethanol, are you?
     
  20. Herb

    Herb Just got it firing!

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    No ethanol, at least not according to the label on the gas pump.. RPM does drop below 800, engine will sometimes catch at that point and return to idle +/- 1100 , but usually just freefalls to zero. I have noticed that the headlight goes off just as it stalls which is in keeping with the ECU shutting the motor down. Motor can be immediately restarted and settles down to steady idle, but any throttle roll on, even just a blip, followed by throttle roll off will result in a stall.

    Herb
     

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