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oil leak

nel

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
236
Assuming my diagnosis is correct how much will it cost to fix. My oil leak turns out to be a seal buried in the bell housing between the engine and gear box. I can now see oil stains all around the bellhousing seam and get more drops forming on the sump. Its got worse so does this mean engine/gear box out separate to replace the seal? Any ideas how many manhours and what a dealer would charge to fix? I guess this work would be similar to older guzzis so any garage could do it or would it need dealer special tools?
 
It does take special tools if it is the rear main or transmission input seal. I'm not sure of the book time for the new machines, but I know 6 hours is allowed for the clutch on the Tonti frames. It should be close to the same time. As always, you can't be sure before you start. There may be additional items to fix besides seals. If you are leaking transmission oil, it has probably gotten to the plates (replace those and maybe the hub gear) plus what caused the seal to fail, a faulty input bearing perhaps (common on the 5 speeds). If just the rear main, not to bad, but on some of the older bikes, the two bottom bolts that hold the rear main carrier also had to be sealed. I don't know if this is an issue with the new engines. So I would say the 6 hour labor charge is just the start, depends what the technician finds once the cases are split.
 
Thanks for the reply. Its engine oil on a breva 1100 leaking into the bell housing then out around the circumference. Main dealer hour rates are to rich for me £55 an hour. Considering whether a non guzzi main dealer could fix it. The Maintenance manual documents engine removal after swinging arm is off. It doesnt go into engine gearbox spilt. Maybe I should go back to jap bikes.
 
Nel,

To get at the rear main seal, you will need to remove the clutch assembly and flywheel. For this you need two special tools. The flywheel holding tool and the clutch alignment tool. You may find it cheaper to buy the tools and do it your self than to pay the dealer, but then, if we don't support dealers to some point they will go away. Are there any service centers in your area?

The part number for the clutch tool is 30 90 65 10. The part number for the flywheel tool is 12 91 18 01. It may help to have part number 14 92 71 00 to set the rear main seal.
 
I don't think guzzi would survive without kind folks like you and Peter R. offering advice, etc. It's stopped from swaping back to Jap bikes. Your advice is spot on as it was when my CARC seal failed. Im trying to workout whether to pay the massive Guzzi main dealer labour rates or swap it for a cheaper bike to service. It would appear without the tools you mention an independent garage (35 an hr)could not do the job. I'm at 350000 miles now, why the engine crankshaft seal should fail is beyond me.
 
Nel,

It may work to buy the tools and let the independent shop do the repair. Cost for the tools is probably around $150.00 USD. You could probably e-bay them after you use them, or just keep them for the future.
 
I'm guessing the tools Clutch alignment and flywheel removal would be the same for B11 and older big block, I'm hoping an independent garage has them. Quotes vary from bottom £400 to an eye watering £925. My toy costs more to run than my cars.

Here a pic showing item 41 which is a crankshaft gasket. I guerss this is failing. When you look at the gasket it's the same brown plastic like the carc seal.
 
Nel,

Good guess. The special tools for the rear main are the same as for the older big blocks with 4mm clutch splines. Additional special tools may be needed for the swing arm. See page 7-7 of the factory workshop manual.
 
While it is probably the rear mainseal while you're in there make sure the flange gasket isn't leaking, the two bottom flange bolts are sealed and the cam end welch plug is sealed up with araldite or some such as those are also potential leak points.

While I haven't done a clutch or mainseal on a Norge I have done a Breva which is essentially the same apart from the fact that the Norge has a host more extaneous plastic and shit to take off before you get to the nitty gritty.

There are no special tools required for removing the swingarm unless you count a 'C' spanner as a special tool. Nor do you need the flywheel holding tool, it's handy but not vital, you can use a short length of flat bar with two holes drilled in it to hold the flywheel. Hook one end over a bell housing stud and the other onto a bolt screwed into the flywheel where the ring gear bolts go.

What IS important is that you use either the clutch alignment tool or one of your own making made from an old input boss to align the plates and crush the clutch springs. If you don't it is almost certain you will bend the intermediate plate and then you'll need to do the whole sorry job all over again.

The Breva I did I had to do twice as I replaced the gearbox even though I didn't think this was the problem and the one I replaced it with turned out to be a dud so I had to swap the original back in again! First time I took about three days working very slowly and carefully as I hadn't done one before and wanted to make sure it was done right without me missing anything. Second time round it was all done in about five hours. CHances are if you do it yourself you'll be somewhere in between those two times.

Pete
 
Thanks for the info. One garage said the engine has to come out with everything. Another said swinging arm and gearbox off the back is enough. Who is right?
 
I think both are.

I think the Breva engine can be dropped like the older spine frames leaving the transmission and swing arm in place. It is a matter of mechanics choice. I think I'd use the remove swing arm and trans. That keeps the throttle bodies, fuel lines and cables in place. Just be sure they remove the phase sensor from the front of the engine as that can be a short lead that is damaged easily. Also disconnect the engine temp sensor.
 
My 2005 Breva 1100 has just started to leak as described by Nel, from the front of the bell housing. It's defiantly engine oil. Has anyone else had this problem and has anybody done the job. The cost of a dealer repair is just too much so I'm going to have a go myself.

Bronco.
 
Replacing the seal is exactly the same as doing it on an earlier engine. Getting to it is considerably more difficult.

Unlike a Tonti frame you can't 'Crab' either of the CARC frames and the Breva/Sport/Norge frame has the additional issue of the 'Plates' at the front that bolt between the engine and downtubes.

While you don't *Have* to disconnect everthing at the end of the day I personally think it is easier to do so and then 'wheelbarrow', (Or lift, which is what I do with a long-beam engine crane.) the frame away. You can, (from memory.) leave the TB's in place but the airbox has to come off. First time you do it it'll probably take you days. I think the first one I did took about two working days as I sorted out what needed to come off and how. Second one I had turned over in about a day. Remember though I have a fully equipped workshop, help on hand for the fiddly bits of lifting the bike on and off the motor and thirty years of Guzzi experience. I used to lend tools out but unfortunately people started thinking that there was no need to return the things that earn my my daily bread by so I don't do that any more.

As to what would cause the seal to pop? Most likely cause is over-filling of the engine. I never run a Guzzi motor, any of the big blocks, with the oil level filled to the maximum line. About half way between 'Max' and 'Fill' is usually where they are happiest.

Pete
 
Workshop? Luxury, I’ve got to do the job in the front yard. Luckily I’ve got a good shed round the back to store the bits as I go, but I can’t get the whole bike around the back.

I like the wheelbarrow idea, I was trying to work out how to suspend the bike as the engine and gearbox drops out.

I’ve also found a good suppler for the special tools required so they will be on order soon.

I've never overfilled the oil (as far as I know) but the bike has done 34,000 miles, so I'm hoping it's just the seal.

So all I need now is a sunny weekend and my bag of spanners. My mate’s going to come around to help me with the heavy bits and help me open a few beers at the end of the day. I foresee a lot of swearing, spanner throwing and grazed knuckles.
 
Well if you have trouble ASK. Before you start fucking stuff up. I am always pleased to help people LEARN and gain knowledge and experience. what I DON'T like is people taking shit on they are manifestly incapable of doing and then trying to blame others, and most particularly ME, for the fact that they have bitten off more than they can chew.

There is no shame in asking for help. I think blaming someone else for the fact you've behaved like a fuquetard is pathetic, miserable and sad. So ASK. There are heaps of people here to help and advise.

Pete
 
Thanks for the advice and I will certainly ask if I get stuck. I've downloaded the manual from this site and looked through it. All seems pretty straight forward, one query I have initially is do I use thread lock on the flywheel bolts?

It’s not a case of “fucking up” but more of getting stuck halfway through a job with limited gear when that one bolt decides it’s not coming undone or snaps off, then your stuffed for a week with the bike in bits whilst you sort it out.

It’s probably my age, as I get older I feel more reluctant to tackle these big jobs. But I’m starting to look forward to getting stuck in. It’s so rewarding when the jobs done.

I had a neighbour a few years ago who used to have a go at fixing his car with his £9.99 273 piece toolkit only to have the car towed off to the garage the next day, he'd removed the hub and disconnected the brake pipe to change the brake disc. I offered help but he always reckoned he knew what he was doing. I always worried when he’d had a go on a Sunday and then drove the kids to school on the Monday.
 
Re: Re:eek:il leak

john zibell said:
Nel,

The part number for the clutch tool is 30 90 65 10. The part number for the flywheel tool is 12 91 18 01. It may help to have part number 14 92 71 00 to set the rear main seal.

I've removed the engine today and taken the gearbox off, there's a lot of dirty oil residue around the bottom third of the housing behind the flywheel. Thers also clean oil residue around the flange but the seal in the middle is totally dry. So I suspect its the flange gasket needs replacing. If so do I need any other special tools other than those listed above (which I have) do I need any of these tools, 12 91 36 00 Flywheel flange removal tool, 12 91 20 00 to fit flywheel flange with sealing ring on crank, 19 92 71 00 to fit sealing ring on flywheel side flange.

Will it also be ok to remove and replace the flange with out any further work on the engine as this flange supports the crank.

I'm also slightly concerned about the sealing disc at the end of the camshaft how is this removed and replaced.

Regards Richard.
 
If it is apart, replace the crank seal. I use a hooked pry bar to remove the rear main bearing holder. I just hook it behind the flange and swing the handle to give a little shock to the bearing carrier. If it doesn't go easy, try turning the rear main carrier a little to break any seal. I've seen photo's of damaged rear mains using the factory puller. If you decide to do the job yourself, it is helpful to have the rear main tool as well. It is too easy to set it too deep, or off at an angle without it.

Be sure to mark the position of the rear main carrier in relation to the block. There are oil passageways that must line up or the rear main won't be supplied with oil. Also it is a good idea to clean the thread holes and bolts for the carrier and use Loctite 242 (blue) on the threads of the bolts on installation.

If you feel this is beyond your capability, don't be embarrassed by taking the engine to a competent shop. You have done the hard part and the shop would take very little time to replace the gasket and seal.
 
I've just checked the engine as it’s been standing overnight and the oil is defiantly coming from the camshaft cap, how is this removed and what’s the best way to reseal it. I would be grateful for any advice, as I can't find any info in the manuals.

Maybe it’s time to take the engine to a dealer to do this job.
 
The cam plug is a welch plug. It id put in and then biffed to 'Spread' it. Yes, they do sometimes leak.

BEWARE! removing it means you have to install a new one and they are a right bastard. If you're sure it's the plug rather than pulling it I suggest cleaning the area very thoroughly with brake cleaner and then contact cleaner or something else that is incredibly volatile but leaves no residue. Then coat the plug and its surrounds carefully and thoroughly with a good, oil reistant, two part epoxy. Let it dry for a couple of days and then add another coating and allow that to dry. 99 times out of 100 this will fix the leak and it is a LOT less hassle than replacing the welch plug!!!!

Pete
 
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