question about intermittent starting error

[lenny_v]

Hi all,

Sorry to bother you about a subject that already has several posts.

My 2004 Breva 750ie has the well known starting error I've checked the wiring and it is the italian disaster you'd expect so that need doing.
However I'm not really getting only a click but the starter turns slowly and after a couple of tries it'll always start.
The annoying thing is that every time it happens my trip counter resets and the clock loses its time.
The clock isn't important but I use the trip counter to check if i need to refuel.

Is this part of the same error or is there something else?

Thanks,
Lennaert

 

[Kevin.NZ]

Have you taken the starter motor apart, could be worn brushes, solenoid or clutch dust, check the battery and associated cables and earths. With the load the starter is putting on the battery looks like its dropping well below 10V hence the clock and trip counter problems.
Kevin

 

[kiwi dave]

Yes, sound like a dud battery to me.

 

[Brian UK]

First thing, are the battery connections clean and tight? Is the main earth to the frame/engine good. Have you checked the battery voltage? It could be a dud battery, but a poor connection could also give these symptoms.
Also check the connections are tight on the end of the solenoid

 

[lenny_v]

Thanks for the replies.
The battery is new and good, it doesn't happen all the time.
I've also cleaned up every connection I could find.
So I guess it is that valeo motor starter solenoid thingamabob that is causing issues
I am about to clear out some connectors out of the wireharness there's a couple unnecessary ones in there.
Also do the mod on the starter relay,
And learn to swear in Italiuan while I'm at it ;-)

But at least I know now the problems aren't related.

I'll let you know what happened...

 

[Brian UK]

So the starter turns slowly. Every time? Either you have a poor connection from the battery to the starter - could even be a partly broken wire - or you have an internal problem with the starter motor electrics. Worn brushes or similar as Kevin said.
I know it's difficult, but can you check what volts you have at the starter motor when it's running?

 

[lenny_v]

It's not always. Thats the whole thing.
If its always or always when the engine is warm or cold or the weather is moist but it's none of that.
I just cleaned the "ground" terminals but they werent all that corroded.

Does this sounds logical:
The solenoid in the starter assembly doesn't give enough voltage to the starter to really get is turning and because of the slow turning teh amperage rises which drains the battery?

Oh hell I just going to put a plier on and see what happens ;-)

 

[Kevin.NZ]

If the solenoid is not pulling in hard it might not be making a good electrical contact inside. Its quite easy to take it apart once the starter is off, clean out any dust and dry grease, don't be tempted to put any oil or grease in there as the dust will adhere to it .

 

[scottmastrocinque]

To me, your symptoms do not indicate a starter problem and your logic is partly correct. Even if the internals of the starter were mickied, your voltage would not drop to your instrument panel to the point of the dash resetting itself. At least I don't believe so and I've never seen such a thing happen in my whole life of working on motorcycles.

When you say you cleaned every contact, did you remove the battery contacts, and any other wires connected to that battery post, and wire brush them to "clean metal", and wire brush the posts to death as well, and even wire brush the bolts, threads and all, every surface, that screw into the terminal posts. Wire brush it all, every side, nook qnd cranny, completely. When you reattach everything, make sure the main motorcycle wire is the first wire in contact with the battery post. Put any other wires on top of that, but make sure that the main wire is the first one touching the battery post.

I had your exact problem!

On my Stelvio I had what appeared to be good clean contacts, but the bike kept clicking the relays and refusing to start randomly every so often.

Thought it was the battery - no, Starter - no, Dashboard - No.

It turned out to be dirty oxidized battery terminals, contacts on the wires, and oxidized terminal post screws. The combined resistance across the oxidation was enough to deny the proper voltage and amperage to the system. Once I cleaned them to death, reassembled, and coated them with petroleum jelly to prevent further oxidation, the problem vanished!

Good Luck!

 

[lenny_v]

I'm amazed by this forum, I've seen a lot of very less friendly places

I'm going to take both the last 2 posts as advice.
I did wirebrush everything where I could get a wire brush to and polished the battery terminals so it would het the best possible contact with the connector.
The only one I missed was the ground lead to the engine block.

It starts "okay" now

As soon as I have a little time on my hand I will clean the solenoid.
I've ordered new relays and relay foots.
I've found the inserts for the fuse box so I can replace those.

As for the petroleum jelly:
Is this the same as vaseline?
Somebody on this (or an other) forum mentioned that moist could get trapped under the jelly and cause more harm that good.

Thanks for all the replies and I will keep you posted.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Yes, Vaseline is petroleum jelly.

I've done this my whole life on cars, motorcycles, boats, jetskis, quads, etc. Never ever had a moisture problem.

Yes, sometimes here, it can get confusing as everybody has their own recipie for chicken soup!

You occassionally have to do a little outside reading and/or just make a judgement call as to what works for you.

Good Luck!


FWIW from the net at reputable sites:

"Petroleum Jelly. - t’s no coincidence that your car battery always dies on the coldest winter day. Low temperatures increase electrical resistance and thicken engine oil, making the battery work harder. Corrosion on the battery terminals also increases resistance and might just be the last straw that makes the battery give up. Before winter starts, disconnect the terminals and clean them with a wire brush. Reconnect, then smear with petroleum jelly. The jelly will prevent corrosion and help keep the battery cranking all winter long."




"Smear petroleum jelly on the battery terminals. A thin layer of petroleum jelly will conduct the electricity between the terminal and the cable end, while protecting the battery terminals from corrosion."


​

 

[Brian UK]

When I looked at the solenoid on my Norge, I found dried sticky grease covering the plunger. This would have been from original assembly. I cleaned it all off. I did put a very light smear of oil there instead, though possibly as it's brass covered, leaving dry might have been better. But it did start more reliably afterwards. I had already done the wiring mod.
Also I now use electrical contact cleaner and lubricant spray on all connectors and switches I find. It helps to keep the nasty green corrosion away, and is easier than petroleum jelly to get into awkward spaces.
Always remember, it's very unlikely any electrical connector was put together with any protection when the bike was built.