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Re: Bellagio mods

Not trying to turn it into a race bike.
Had a Cali Stone and dreamed of a Ghezzi & Brian Fionda, too dear so bought a Ducati Hypermotard. It had all the same kit but engine was wrong way round and it had a chain thingy. Bella will never catch a Hyper, but that Ducati was absolutely psycho. Cali with a few suspension/brake mods was a pretty good alrounder.

I test rode a Bellagio a few years ago back to back with the new 1100's and again later against the new 1200's.
The 940 just felt so smooth and sweet (to me) by comparison and I sought of knew then that it would be part of my retirement heirom.

I only intended replacing a faulty rear indicator, seriously, but got carried away, apparently.

Anyhow I'm not trying to make a race rocket, but like my Stone I believe with a few minor (?, no such thing) adjustments to the chassis department will reap huge rewards in the tight twisties. It all just adds up to pure riding pleasure.

However, it will be prudent of me to experiment at the race track rather than public roads. :whistle:
 
ghezzi said:
I test rode a Bellagio a few years ago back to back with the new 1100's and again later against the new 1200's.
The 940 just felt so smooth and sweet (to me) by comparison and I sought of knew then that it would be part of my retirement heirom.

That is very-very-very interesting for me, if you don't mind a little thread parenthesis: I think the Griso 850 (877cc) I can get around here much cheaper than the 1100 is able to hop to the 936 cc pretty easily (essentialy becoming a Bella engine) with the 1200 2valver pistons and maybe make up a little for the less than the 1100 torque by the extra reviness and smoothness - myself liking reviness vs torqueness any time of any day.
Could you describe more the difference you felt between the 940/1100/1200 at various rpm areas?
How does Bella feel enginewise in comparison at speeds around 120Kmh (75 mph)?
Also the 1200 you rode was the 2Valver ?
 
Hi Mika, firstly my main point of comparison is/was the 2001 California Stone (1064cc 2v) I owned at the time, it had Staintune mufflers, open air box with K&N and PC-3 fitted, making 69rwhp and 60ft/lbs torque. I have previously owned two MK3 Le Mans, an SP1000 and a Cali II. My comparison test rides were a long tima ago.

When I first test rode an 1100 Griso it felt like it had more mumbo, but city test rides don't allow too much exploration of the upper rev range. What really surprised me was the 940cc Bellagio (no tacho) seemed to lack nothing in the torque department compared to my Cali Stone. When I test rode the 1200's the overiding impression was more "BULK", yes they had more power but size and weight I hate. The 750 Breva was the sweetest thing to ride and the handling was so light and neutral. For me the Bellagio was dead in the middle, a sweet smooth motor with sufficient horsepower but mainly the classic Guzzi mid range torque that I know and love so well.

I've never ridden the 850 Griso, I assumed it would be the same weight as the 1100 but with less power.
What we need is a comparison from members here between an 850 Griso and 940 Bellagio, Europe/UK is currently snowed in so that leaves Australia, Maybe Mr Roper has ridden both ................ :cool: The major difference with Bella is its 66mm short stroke crankshaft, this is the component that is individually responsible for altering the engine characteristics, when compared to all the other Guzzi big blocks.

Surprisingly, BELLA has same gear ratios and final drive as the 1100/1200's, which have approx the same rpm/kph in top gear as my Cali Stone, about 3,600rpm @ 100kph. At 120kph my Bella sounds busy and as if it needs another gear, but that is mainly due to my "LOUD PIPES", at 100kph both Bella and Cali will accelerate nicely but due to the overdrive nature of top gear the motor is below peak torque, dropping one cog makes for quicker overtaking.
 
Generally speaking with all other things being equal, the bigger (heavier) the piston and the longer the stroke, the more an engine will pulsate/vibrate.

Now I am not saying the 1100/1200's were rough, course or harsh, just by comparison the 940 short stroke felt smoother and sweeter. It's a different bike built for a different market, but nobody ever makes what I want.

It is easier for me to build a retro style bike from Bella, also easier to improve handling and braking on Bella than to make an 1100/1200 appear old....................... horses for courses.
 
Delivered Bella to Scotty Heyes with a Griso shock today. By all external appearances it appears Bella's hydraulic pre-load adjuster will fit the Sachs shock without fouling the gas canister from the Griso, and the whole lot should fit within the frame. However, I have removed the standard battery box.

Having an op on my ear (so I can hear those pipes :D ) next week, so it will be another 7 days before I can get a helmet on to test the quality of my ride.
 
Update: Ear is good, should have hearing back in 3 weeks.
Better still, Scotty called to report test run on Bella.
7mm static sag + 35mm 100kg rider sag = spring too soft.

Compression damping; (there is no adjustment)
High speed (hitting sharp bumps) there is no fluid movement or give = fillings and glass eyes fall out, vertebrae shatter. And I thought the spring was too hard :?
Low speed as in loading the suspension when cornering there is too much fluid movement = rear end squats and bike runs wide.

It is possible there is something wrong internally with my stock shock, but as we are replacing it with a modified Griso shock we will never find out.
 
If there is too much sag then the working range of the leverage system is at higher spring loading per suspension travel ratio. So the suspension fails to absorb small bumps particularly when cornering and seems to be too hard.
I have run into such a condition with my suspension moded DR and I am looking into different length connection rods to cure it properly setting the sag while getting the leverage ratio right.
 
Understand Mi_ka, but the whole plot is sub standard to begin with.
By your explanation of progressive increase in loading through the travel range, my initial travel should be soft and compliant. The shock will of course be resprung and revalved.

The nitrogen canister is sealed in its standard form. Scott has added a valve for regassing.
Scott also said the Griso shock was valved poorly and would have resulted in a similar feel to the Bella's poor ride quality.

I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, just went the budget alternative to $1700 bling shock. Chasing firm but compliant ride for our rough goat tracks the Govt calls roads. I was previously spoilt by a well sorted Ducati Hypermotard, you could choose the fast line and ignore the potholes.

Update Apr 2013, I had mistakenly thought Griso shock was longer than Bellagio - Wrong.
 
Bike is back, feels good but can't ride. Inner ear operation + swelling means my head is too fat for my helmet. :evil:
 
interesting - I have the OEM shock on the rear but mine was one of the original 'long' ones, at least longer than the rear shocks that came with the 2nd interation of the bellagios, at the time of the silver and white ones.

Which was the one you replaced Ghezzi?

you can see the difference in ride height here:

rugby.jpg
 
I have the 2007 Bellagio (matt black) with the long shock.
Had a short ride this morning, definately turns in better, quicker.
Ride is smoother but a little fettling with compression/rebound adjusters may be needed.

Bella's hydraulic pre load adjuster needs approx 2mm increase in internal diameter to fit over threaded section of Griso shock.
 
Update: Rear suspension appears to be on the money. Haven't fitted Bella's hydraulic preload adjuster yet. Its all machined and ready to fit but due to its depth a shorter 11kg spring is needed to set correct sag.

PC-5 Died: Bella developed a little hiccup on previous ride, hit a reasonable bump and it was like I toggled the kill switch. Got south of Rathdowney last saturday and the whole plot went downhill fast. Limped back to town using the choke as it wouldn't accept more than a few percent throttle.

Towed it home :(

Bella is now in hospital, possible pacemaker replacement to get her ticking nicely again. ;)
 
ghezzi said:
Update: Rear suspension appears to be on the money. Haven't fitted Bella's hydraulic preload adjuster yet. Its all machined and ready to fit but due to its depth a shorter 11kg spring is needed to set correct sag.
PC-5 Died: Bella developed a little hiccup on previous ride, hit a reasonable bump and it was like I toggled the kill switch. Got south of Rathdowney last saturday and the whole plot went downhill fast. Limped back to town using the choke as it wouldn't accept more than a few percent throttle.
Good news on the shock. I'll likely have one of the new Matris shocks in stock here shortly for anyone interested.
Keep us posted on the PC-V. They don't just die, especially if it kept running (even partially). I'll be anxious to hear what's the cause.
If it ever happens again, you can return it to stock by simply swapping the stock injector wires back to the factory plugs/injectors, and then you'll be running on the ECU again.
 
Todd, you did the reflash so O2 has vapourised.
It felt like a loose connection in the wiring as it only faultered over bumps initially, been happening very occassionally for a few weeks. Been looking but couldn't find a fault.

Fred at Procycle Dyno has it now to check if hardware/software issue.

Had several reports of the pins in the stock injector connectors coming loose and replicating the symptoms I had.
 
Just rebuilt the Bellagio after my crash
Thought i would post some photos up
2012-05-27_09-13-38_140.jpg


2012-05-27_09-13-55_390.jpg


2012-05-27_09-14-09_273.jpg


Still a few jobs i need to do ,But the bike is ready for its inspection now.
 
PC-5 Update

After waiting 4 weeks for replacement PC symptoms still evident. Can't explain why it wouldn't run with the old PC connected, but would run with the new PC but hitting bumps would cause it to cut out.

So I took it to Ozzy who diagnosed the battery earth wire was at fault. I had replaced this recently but all fault codes for coils, injector relays, starter relay and motor had the comment "bad earth".

The Bellagio earth lead is attached to the side of the engine just above the forward edge of the starter motor.
The crimped on connector is large but only has a 5mm hole/bolt. We drilled this hole to 8mm and attached to crankcase/gearbox bolt and all the fault codes have dissappeared.
 
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