rear wheel failure

[scottmastrocinque]

I'm pretty sure that aluminium and ss don't rust. There's clearly some dirt there from the gravel road he was on though. 9,xxxKm is not much. Surely it's a manufacturing or material fault?

Aluminum doesn’t “rust” per se, but it most certainly can corrode.

I do not believe everything in the wheel is aluminum.

Stainless steel can most definitely rust. Stainless does not mean “rust proof”. The lower the chromium content, the easier it will rust.

My opinion was based upon limited photos of average quality.

Not meant as a definitive diagnosis.

 

[GerryAZ]

Here are a few photos to show both rear and front wheels to show the nipples at the hub end. This arrangement is similar to other adventure bikes with tubeless tires on spoke rims (such as BMW GS). As you can see the nipples on the rear wheel are not accessible with the wheel on the bike. I believe the right side nipples will be accessible directly after wheel is removed, but left side will probably require removal of ABS tone ring and maybe brake rotor.

 

[Davy]

I assume the spoke adjuster/nipple reacts against the hub on your Cali, rather than the rim?

Jason, The nipple and threads are at the rim end of the spoke. The flared end of the spokes had broken off inside the hub. The bike had been fairly neglected by previous owner(s). There is unlikely to be corrosion with stainless and none was visible, hence my logic that the drive plate had stuck (needed a puller to remove), preventing the cush drive doing its job.
I thought (this thread), that whoever changed the tyre(s) hadn't cleaned the build up of dirt/ corrosion etc. on the drive plate allowing it to stick. I could be wrong but from experience it is possible.

 

[john zibell]

Jason, The nipple and threads are at the rim end of the spoke. The flared end of the spokes had broken off inside the hub. The bike had been fairly neglected by previous owner(s). There is unlikely to be corrosion with stainless and none was visible, hence my logic that the drive plate had stuck (needed a puller to remove), preventing the cush drive doing its job.
I thought (this thread), that whoever changed the tyre(s) hadn't cleaned the build up of dirt/ corrosion etc. on the drive plate allowing it to stick. I could be wrong but from experience it is possible.

Davy, The V85TT uses the same mounting system of the small blocks. Fingers from the hub fit between rubber pieces in the rear drive. There is no drive plate like on the Tonti frame bikes. This is a system that is a reat PITA to mount the rear wheel. I wish Guzzi had stayed with the drive plate system for all bikes.

 

[JasonC]

Jason, The nipple and threads are at the rim end of the spoke. The flared end of the spokes had broken off inside the hub. The bike had been fairly neglected by previous owner(s). There is unlikely to be corrosion with stainless and none was visible, hence my logic that the drive plate had stuck (needed a puller to remove), preventing the cush drive doing its job.
I thought (this thread), that whoever changed the tyre(s) hadn't cleaned the build up of dirt/ corrosion etc. on the drive plate allowing it to stick. I could be wrong but from experience it is possible.

Thank you for that clarification.

Jason

 

[Vagrant]

No, the V85 and latest 850 V7 uses a modified version that has the rubbers captive. No longer a PITA!

 

[john zibell]

No, the V85 and latest 850 V7 uses a modified version that has the rubbers captive. No longer a PITA!

Good to hear that. I haven't worked on one yet.

 

[davethewelder]

I'm pretty sure that aluminium and ss don't rust. There's clearly some dirt there from the gravel road he was on though. 9,xxxKm is not much. Surely it's a manufacturing or material fault?

The rust you’re seeing could be from metallic brake pads! I had a 2001 GS1150, same thing! Comes off with some scotch bright and elbow grease! Btw 904l stainless steel doesn’t rust, some Rolex’s use it!

 

[GerryAZ]

I guess I will get a chance to tighten the few slightly loose spokes I found the other day. I had a flat on the rear tire yesterday. I was going 75 mph on the freeway when I felt a slight vagueness or looseness in straight-line stability so I slowed down, moved to the shoulder, and stopped. The tire was completely flat and there was a nail or screw hole in the tread (offending object was gone). I was able to plug it with a tubeless tire repair kit and ride home. I am not comfortable with the plug as a permanent repair so I plan to replace the tire (hopefully tomorrow). This is the second time I have had a rear tire go flat while riding a bike with wide radial low-profile tubeless tires. I have been amazed at how stable the bikes remained while slowing down (first on the R1150 RS about 10 years ago and second on the V85TT yesterday). I had a blowout on my 1978 Yamaha 400 at highway speed with spoked wheels and narrow tube type tires when it was only a year old--I was very lucky to get stopped without crashing. That experience made me want tubeless tires on the next bike I purchased.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I’m very happy that you are safe and sound.

Please take photos and post them of the process you take.

I am very interested in this issue on this platform.

Thank you!

 

[Calvin Cran]

I guess I will get a chance to tighten the few slightly loose spokes I found the other day. I had a flat on the rear tire yesterday. I was going 75 mph on the freeway when I felt a slight vagueness or looseness in straight-line stability so I slowed down, moved to the shoulder, and stopped. The tire was completely flat and there was a nail or screw hole in the tread (offending object was gone). I was able to plug it with a tubeless tire repair kit and ride home. I am not comfortable with the plug as a permanent repair so I plan to replace the tire (hopefully tomorrow). This is the second time I have had a rear tire go flat while riding a bike with wide radial low-profile tubeless tires. I have been amazed at how stable the bikes remained while slowing down (first on the R1150 RS about 10 years ago and second on the V85TT yesterday). I had a blowout on my 1978 Yamaha 400 at highway speed with spoked wheels and narrow tube type tires when it was only a year old--I was very lucky to get stopped without crashing. That experience made me want tubeless tires on the next bike I purchased.

Glad all was ok ! I can only wish my failure was just a rear flat. On a positive note I am healing slowly just a few soft tissue issues hanging on, my clutch hand has about 50% strength so hoping to ride my V Strom in a month or so. V85TT is still in Fort Simpson as the insurance company is moving really slow!! Should have a report this week.

 

[GerryAZ]

I am really sorry that happened to you and glad you are healing (slowly). I hope the insurance company treats you fairly.

I will be inspecting the spoke nipples and hub carefully when I get the wheel off and again after the new tire is mounted/balanced before reinstalling. I will post photos of the removal/installation process.

 

[john zibell]

I am really sorry that happened to you and glad you are healing (slowly). I hope the insurance company treats you fairly.

I will be inspecting the spoke nipples and hub carefully when I get the wheel off and again after the new tire is mounted/balanced before reinstalling. I will post photos of the removal/installation process.

Easier to check the spokes before the tire is mounted. Also it helps to do it on a truing stand.

 

[GerryAZ]

Spokes do not go into tire area of rim so no difference with tire on or off. I will just carefully tighten the few that ring with lower pitch when I have the wheel off the bike so I can access the nipples at the hub.

 

[JasonC]

Easier to check the spokes before the tire is mounted. Also it helps to do it on a truing stand.

Yes, adjusting spokes on a truing stand is the best way to go. Adjusting spokes without checking what the rim is doing is not good practice in my mind.

Jason

 

[GerryAZ]

The rear wheel should be easy to remove on the 2021. The rubber cushions are captive in the wheel and slipped off the drive hub easily. There is plenty of room to remove the wheel out from under the fender with the bike on the center stand. Spoke nipples are not accessible without removing the tone ring and rotor on the left side and an internal cover on the right side.

I could not remove either the 26 mm axle nut or the hex head brake backing plate bolt with the longest 1/2-inch drive breaker bar I have. I was able to get the axle nut loose with my cordless 1/2-inch drive impact wrench, but it hammered quite a while. The cordless wrench would not remove the brake bolt, but my heavy duty 1/2-inch drive pneumatic impact wrench was finally able to remove it after hammering for a long time (probably a minute or so). The threads on the axle look OK, but I think I need a new nut. I will check the brake bolt and threads in the swing arm when I get back home. The service manual calls for 100 Nm (73.76 lb-ft) torque on the axle nut; 35 Nm (25.81 lb-ft) for the brake bolt. Both were way over that because either impact wrench would easily handle 100 lb-ft without sustained hammering. The axle nut is still stuck in the 26 mm socket—will need hammer, punch, and vise to remove it.

There is no way I could have removed the wheel alongside the road so I suggest that others check to make sure their bolts were not severely over tightened (by either factory or dealer). I will check the spokes after the new tire is mounted.



Edited 10/15/2022 to correct axle nut size (26 mm socket, not 24 mm).

 

[GerryAZ]

Yes, adjusting spokes on a truing stand is the best way to go. Adjusting spokes without checking what the rim is doing is not good practice in my mind.

Jason

I agree—I just intend to tighten the few that ring at lower pitch slightly so I should be OK.

 

[Calvin Cran]

I agree—I just intend to tighten the few that ring at lower pitch slightly so I should be OK.

Thanks for these photos. I was starting to think how I could have installed the rear wheel wrong or damaged the spokes. Its as straight forward as I remember. I was beginning to doubt myself and thinking I installed the drive plate poorly. I remember it going on very smoothly. Then again I rode for 2000km after the tire change with the bike behaving perfectly. The bike is still 1700km from me.

 

[GerryAZ]

Update: The brake backing plate bolt and threads in swing arm seem to be OK. I was able to screw it in smoothly by hand all the way until the head bottomed against the swing arm and there was no aluminum residue in the fine threads of the steel bolt. I will know for sure when I torque it to factory specification after reinstalling the wheel.

The axle threads appear to be OK, but the threads in the nut are clearly damaged. I will call my local dealer to order a new nut tomorrow. The axle nut is not very thick so thread stresses are high and a well-fitting socket is needed to minimize the risk of rounding the corners. I may also search local hardware sources for a thicker high-strength nut with the correct threads.

 

[Raven]

The cush hub design is almost exactly like my 1974 Suzuki TM125 I had when I was 18. They worked well back then too (1978).