Rollerization

[Bill Hagan]

Is that round trip? Did he do it in one day and you just stayed over and waited for it? That is 465 miles from my house. I won't mind drive over, drop it off, kill a day or 2 and drive back. But to drive over, back, over, back is a bit much. I keep looking at this and wondering if I should do it. I would love to enter riding season with this thing ready to go and be able to trust it. Lack of trust is why the 2007 Norge went away.

No. Not "while I waited." So, actually, I suppose it was a 2800+ mile trip!

Jim could do it in a day or so, I suppose, but the bureaucratic process of getting Piaggio's suits to approve claim and send parts is more glacial than we might like.

That said, give Jim a call and ask.

IMO, as tempting as the "just ride it" advice might be, putting this fix off risks catastrophic damage.

Best wishes with this.

Bill

 

[WayneOrwig]

Is that round trip? Did he do it in one day and you just stayed over and waited for it? That is 465 miles from my house. I won't mind drive over, drop it off, kill a day or 2 and drive back. But to drive over, back, over, back is a bit much. I keep looking at this and wondering if I should do it. I would love to enter riding season with this thing ready to go and be able to trust it. Lack of trust is why the 2007 Norge went away.

That is sort of out of the question. They have to disassemble the unit and get a photo of the wear/damage. THEN and only then, they order the kit. Most of the time the kits are on back order, so you wait for weeks or even a couple of months for the kit to arrive. Then they can install it. A and B kit take a couple of hours. The C kit for closer to 8 hours.

 

[abbienormal]

That is sort of out of the question. They have to disassemble the unit and get a photo of the wear/damage. THEN and only then, they order the kit. Most of the time the kits are on back order, so you wait for weeks or even a couple of months for the kit to arrive. Then they can install it. A and B kit take a couple of hours. The C kit for closer to 8 hours.

If they have to photograph damage I image mine with only 2,900 miles will not be very photogenic for this purpose. Your time quotes are only about half what the dealer quoted me. Sounds like you have to ride it till the problem manifests itself then park the bike while waiting for parts. I was hoping to order the kit and get it installed. I have all the plastic off mine right now and it looks like a fairly straightforward job if I had a kit. Everything I have read mine is the "A" kit but they need to verify that.

 

[brlawson]

If they have to photograph damage I image mine with only 2,900 miles will not be very photogenic for this purpose. Your time quotes are only about half what the dealer quoted me. Sounds like you have to ride it till the problem manifests itself then park the bike while waiting for parts. I was hoping to order the kit and get it installed. I have all the plastic off mine right now and it looks like a fairly straightforward job if I had a kit. Everything I have read mine is the "A" kit but they need to verify that.

Teo Lamers has all three kits in stock and shipping usually take about two weeks. The price of the labor tends to be more than the parts which is why I did my own and if you are willing to the work yourself I would go this way. No driving to a shop that may or may not do the job right.


Kit A Part # 1A002060 - 789.48 + 35 shipping = $914usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A002060

Kit B Part # 1A002063 - 598.55 + 35 shipping = $723usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/camshaft-kit-b-8v-09-10-stelvi-1a002063-moto-guzzi

Kit C Part # 1A002082 - 1,155.83 + 35 shipping = $1328usd
http://www.tlm.nl/webshop/en/catalogsearch/result/?cat=0&q=1A00208


Edit:

Instructions from Roper
wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=78160.0

 

[canuck1969]

That is actually a pretty good price. Your exchange is incorrect though. It would be $1076 USD + shipping. They actually have a currency conversion at the top.

Even though it should only take 2 or 3 hours for a Kit A, they will probably charge 4 or 5 as a minimum. I would save the money you will give to a shop and just buy the kit and do it your self. You can then put it in at your leisure.

 

[brlawson]

That is actually a pretty good price. Your exchange is incorrect though. It would be $1076 USD + shipping. They actually have a currency conversion at the top.

Even though it should only take 2 or 3 hours for a Kit A, they will probably charge 4 or 5 as a minimum. I would save the money you will give to a shop and just buy the kit and do it your self. You can then put it in at your leisure.

Yea, that's the rate from a few months back. Wonder which currency made the adjustment? Weaker USD I'm sure.

 

[j duncan cooper]

I ordered my C Kit from AF1 Racing. It arrived 48 hours later. Damn good service.
Abbie.....sent ya a PM

 

[abbienormal]

I see on the TSB that it requires reprogramming with P.A.D.S. after the install. I guess that means a trip to the dealer after I install it. How bad is it and can I ride to the dealer or is this a "Don't ride it" type thing. The hardest part I am seeing is removing the bolt for the cam chain tensioner while the engine is in the frame. Seems the throttle body is heavily in the way. Maybe have to remove it?

 

[canuck1969]

You will need to reset the learning parameters for the ECU. Not life threatening but may run like crap for the first little bit until it figures out the new parameters and fueling. Also, the TB need to be re-balanced. May cause a bit of vibes and a rough idle until it can be done at the dealers since you will need software to do it. There are also other alternatives to PADS to make the changes.

As for the bolt removal, if you remove just the injector, you get a bit of a better reach to it. You can get an allen key in there to first crack it loose. After that, it is a 1/4 turn at a time to get it out, but it is doable. If you have a small socket wrench that will also work to get in there but again, you will only get about a 1/4 turn at a time.

 

[john zibell]

I got to that screw by removing the injector and manifold. Still difficult, but even worse is getting the tension off the chain. Can't seem to get enough off on either side. A good hook tool is needed to pull the sprocket with chain onto the new camshaft.

 

[canuck1969]

I got to that screw by removing the injector and manifold. Still difficult, but even worse is getting the tension off the chain. Can't seem to get enough off on either side. A good hook tool is needed to pull the sprocket with chain onto the new camshaft.

Funny, never had that issue with chain tension. Need a long skinny screw driver to get the pressure off on the left side, then was able to slip a small allen key into the hole. Have to play with it to make sure it is all the way back before inserting a small allen key into the whole. The make sure the key sits straight in the hole once it catches the other side of the tensioner. If it ends up pushed at an angle to one side of the hole you don't have it in the slot. Once you do that you have all the tension off. That may be why you needed the hook to get the cam gear back on. My slipped right on. The right side was loose as can be once the tensioner cap was removed in the V. Took a 2 foot breaker bar to get it off, but once loose it spins right off.

 

[MotoG5]

Funny, never had that issue with chain tension. Need a long skinny screw driver to get the pressure off on the left side, then was able to slip a small allen key into the hole. Have to play with it to make sure it is all the way back before inserting a small allen key into the whole. The make sure the key sits straight in the hole once it catches the other side of the tensioner. If it ends up pushed at an angle to one side of the hole you don't have it in the slot. Once you do that you have all the tension off. That may be why you needed the hook to get the cam gear back on. My slipped right on. The right side was loose as can be once the tensioner cap was removed in the V. Took a 2 foot breaker bar to get it off, but once loose it spins right off.

My experience exactly. Pete Roper says that a quick way to reset ECU learning parameters is to disconnect the battery for a few minutes and then reconnect. This will reset the ECU to basic programing. Only down side will be that you will have to reset the clock function. After all the leaking battery issues I had getting into the menu to rest the clock became a snap.

 

[WayneOrwig]

I see on the TSB that it requires reprogramming with P.A.D.S. after the install. I guess that means a trip to the dealer after I install it. How bad is it and can I ride to the dealer or is this a "Don't ride it" type thing. The hardest part I am seeing is removing the bolt for the cam chain tensioner while the engine is in the frame. Seems the throttle body is heavily in the way. Maybe have to remove it?

On mine I had the battery disconnected for a long time to reset it. It idled like crap for about the first 1/2 hour. Ran fine, just idled poorly. After the ECU relearned things, everything was great.
The bolt for the cam chain tensioner is easy to get to. Loosening the chain is a bit more involved as others mentioned. And of course making sure nothing rotates.
If you have an A or B kit, it is easy. C kit becomes more complicated.

 

[j duncan cooper]

The difference with the C kit (from the A or B) is a shim beneath the exhaust valve. (exhaust I think...) When I was looking at the shim, it's VERY thin. Probably not more than .02 in. I THINK it serves to 'preload' the valve spring to accommodate the different cam profile w the roller kit. Now....really.... I'd question how necessary the shim is. I know engineers, and they're often more precise than practical. Been there...done that...

I wish I had an engine to try deleting the spring with. Maybe if I get to Mandello I'll track the engineer down and press him to see if it's crucial. I'd bet it's not.....

 

[canuck1969]

The preloading of the spring has more to do with putting more pressure on the valve seat so it closes faster to reduce the chance of valve float at high rpm due to the change in weight of the roller assembly. May also be due to a cam profile change that causes the valve spring to need more closing pressure but not sure. The engines that get the C kit also get a new map. As part of that map there is a reduction in the redline from 8500 to 8000 (it is that way for the Stelvio map). Not sure what the difference in engine configuration is with the earlier engines that require the C kit. Guessing the have a softer spring.

 

[Gerrit58]

My engine is modified without the shim. It runs now 10000 km without any issue. Yeah the shim is for high RPM to avoid float of the valve. if you don't use those high RPM for long highway rides you can delete the shim. It saves you a lot of work.

 

[j duncan cooper]

Honestly I'm not surprised. The valve spring constant can't be more than 200#/inch. A shim of .02 thickness would provide about 4 # force. Engineers love splitting hairs like that.

 

[brlawson]

My engine is modified without the shim. It runs now 10000 km without any issue. Yeah the shim is for high RPM to avoid float of the valve. if you don't use those high RPM for long highway rides you can delete the shim. It saves you a lot of work.

Honestly I'm not surprised. The valve spring constant can't be more than 200#/inch. A shim of .02 thickness would provide about 4 # force. Engineers love splitting hairs like that.

I can only hope that anyone looking to upgrade the earlier "C kit" engines will not take these statements as a means to bypass proper protocol. Writing higher rpm's out of the equation is not something you would ever want to do as they may become necessary at some point and they are nice to have when you need them. Engineers splitting hairs can only be a good thing in regard to an engine that has experienced a total failure in design. Omitting this level of detail is what bean counters and lazy folk do.

Let it be known that you are welcome to deal with the situation as you see fit, but take care in preaching it as gospel.

 

[canuck1969]

As an Engineer I can tell you it is not splitting hairs, it is erring on the side of caution. There is a big difference.

Brlawson is correct, the bean counters are the ones that split hairs and error on the side of cost, it is the engineers that have to clean up the mess afterword's and then look like they are splitting hairs. Initial designs are usually balanced between cost and performance/reliability. For the most parts it works, but in this case it did not. When it comes to repairs after the fact it is the other way around since it will cost more to do the repair half ass in the long run when it fails a second time. Take for example the actual repair kits. They could have easily thrown some new fangled flat tappets and cams at the customers to save cost, but they didn't. If they are spending this much money to repair the bike properly, then I wouldn't skimp on steps.

You can probably get away without shimming, but the day you need to crank the throttle to get out of a situation that you don't have time to change gears, and you red line the engine for a while (and I have been there) you may find yourself with a brick for an engine. Or worse case, the next owner that does not know it is not there.

As always, just my 2 cents.

 

[Lannis]

No. Not "while I waited." So, actually, I suppose it was a 2800+ mile trip!

Jim could do it in a day or so, I suppose, but the bureaucratic process of getting Piaggio's suits to approve claim and send parts is more glacial than we might like.

That said, give Jim a call and ask.

IMO, as tempting as the "just ride it" advice might be, putting this fix off risks catastrophic damage.

Best wishes with this.

Bill

Got my Stelvio back yesterday from its "rollerization" adventure. Three months almost to the day from when I took it in.

Took it to "Scoot Richmond" in Richmond, VA. This is the first Stelvio (I think) that they have done. My 2009 had 39,000 miles on it, and so far had shown no signs of increasing valve clearance. They took out the tappets and found discoloration of the surface but no material loss, so I timed THAT just right.

Since it's a 2009, it needed the "C" kit, and Piaggio (as usual) wanted lots of documentation, the original warranty book, photos, etc, which took a couple of months for them to analyze once we sent it. (As a side note, Piaggio's attitude torqued my wife and I off so bad that we bought a new Triumph Trophy SE triple while we were in there.) The shop finally received the kit, installed it, did the centerstand recall, loaded the latest map, and generally did an excellent job for under $900 labor.

I rode it 100 miles home yesterday, and it's running better than ever - the cyclic "clatter" from the rocker arms has gone away now. So I may keep the Stelvio along with the Triumph if it behaves well .... and I can recommend "Scoot Richmond" for anyone that needs this kind of work.

Lannis