Small Block oil - 10w60 in older bike

[GuzziV65TT]

Hi,

I have 2 guzzi's , a very early V35 with a late monza engine and my pride and joy a V65TT. Both seam to suffer from the oil getting very hot on long rides, even to the point of the crank thrust bearings getting a little noisy.

Was looking at the parts catalogues and noticed that the big end bearing shells etc are the same part numbers on my 1984 V65 TT as a 2011 V7 Cafe.

The modern efi bikes are spec'ed to use synthetic 10w60 because of the extra heat, can anyone see any issues using this in older small blocks like my v65tt? as the bearings are the same I cannot see the oil being an issue but would welcome some input!

Iain

 

[john zibell]

Wouldn't hurt and may be beneficial.

 

[GuzziV65TT]

thanks John, my monza engine got so hot last year it started to get noisy with mineral 20w50 SG oil in it.

My TT suffers when riden long distance 2two up with luggage

 

[john zibell]

thanks John, my monza engine got so hot last year it started to get noisy with mineral 20w50 SG oil in it.

My TT suffers when riden long distance 2two up with luggage

Are you running lean?

 

[GuzziV65TT]

plugs on both are slightly sooty, TT is a strange machine with a LM1 style front mounted cross over and twin rear exhausts but original owner was guzzi guru that owns big guzzi dealer near me and it's well setup.

v35/monza is running 24mm carbs with 130mains ( pod filters) and runs a touch too rich.

TT is on Morris Vetwin 20w50 and the monza is on Valvoline VR1 20w50, both have dyna s electronic and strobe set timing

 

[john zibell]

Strange, excessive heat sometimes can be attributed to a lean burn. Everything is probably correct, but retarded timing can cause more heat as well.

 

[GuzziMoto]

A temperature gauge may shed some light on your question, but lacking that I will add what little I can to the discussion.
While viscosity of oil rates its thickness at specific temperatures it is not directly a rating of how high a temperature the oil can stand, The 60 in a 10w60 means it has the viscosity of a 60 weight oil at 100 degrees C. Beyond that temperature things could change, a lower quality oil may breakdown faster than a higher quality oil with a lower viscosity. Just sayin.....
Also, the way it supposedly works is the first number of a multigrade oil is the viscosity of the base oil. That is how thick it behaves when cold. The second number is how it behaves when warmed to 100 degrees C and that is done by adding polymers (viscosity index improvers) to the base oil. Those polymers slow down the flow of the oil when warm, but they are not the same as having a thicker oil to begin with. A 20w50 has a thicker base oil than a 10w60. The trick is to find the right balance, an oil that is thick enough when warm and thin enough when cold. Oils with a larger gap between the cold and warm rating are becoming common, but they are still really relying on the viscosity index improvers to make that large a range. Those VII's are usually long molecules and are susceptible to being broken down. As they breakdown their effect diminishes. There is likely no reason you can't use them, but I would focus more on using a quality oil with the right wear additives. It is getting harder and harder to find SG rated oils, but that is what I look for. But that is the thing with opinions about oil, everyone has one.....

 

[abbienormal]

I'll go along with mostly of what GuzziMoto says except on the viscosity index modifiers. I should know more about oil than I do as (disclaimer here) I am an Amsoil dealer but I only am because the shop I used to work at sold it and when it closed I signed myself up so I could still get it easily. I am NOT trying to say "Use Amsoil". I am trying to say use a good grade synthetic and I'll bet you will see a temperature drop over your dino oil.
I was fairly certain one of Amsoil's claims to fame was the lack of VI modifiers. I googled it and it sent me to their site. The line below is one that stood out.
Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and generally don't need Viscosity Additives.
Amsoil is a group IV. Castrol Syntec and most Mobil 1 except the Premium is Group III which still uses the VI modifiers. Group V is most likely to be no can mix with petroleum and no seal swell synthetics.
If you are really bored and want to read the entire page:
http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

OH NO. Not another oil thread.

 

[GuzziMoto]

But group V oils don't apply, they aren't used. Group 4 is only a few high end oils (and they really do the same thing, just that the VII's are built into the oil). That leaves the normal group 3 oils.
I like Amsoil, but they say some things that are more to sell themselves then to really be true. It is all about spin.

 

[GuzziV65TT]

thanks for all the replies!

common reply eps in the UK is any old mineral 20w50 will do, does not seem very scientific when you look at the temperatures the small block works at. Im using Morris Oils ( as do both guzzi dealers) in 20w50 Vee Twin in the TT and is lovely untill it gets really hot where I get a touch of noise from the the rear crank thrust bearings when I pull the clutch in, leave her for 1/2 hrs to cool and noise has gone

Plugs indicate its a shade on the rich side, timing is 7 deg btdc at 1000 rpm with a strobe and checked staticky with a multimeter and hand cranking. Monza lump is 10deg btdc.

looking at the parts books oover at stien-dinse the bigends and oil pump on my 1984 TT have same part numbers as a V7 Classic EFI

 

[john zibell]

thanks for all the replies!

common reply eps in the UK is any old mineral 20w50 will do, does not seem very scientific when you look at the temperatures the small block works at. Im using Morris Oils ( as do both guzzi dealers) in 20w50 Vee Twin in the TT and is lovely untill it gets really hot where I get a touch of noise from the the rear crank thrust bearings when I pull the clutch in, leave her for 1/2 hrs to cool and noise has gone

Plugs indicate its a shade on the rich side, timing is 7 deg btdc at 1000 rpm with a strobe and checked staticky with a multimeter and hand cranking. Monza lump is 10deg btdc.

looking at the parts books oover at stien-dinse the bigends and oil pump on my 1984 TT have same part numbers as a V7 Classic EFI

Where is timing at 5K, are they advancing as they should?

 

[GuzziV65TT]

i dont have the timing disk to put on the front of the engine, but as the revs increase the timing advances a long way as the strobe points disappear from view well before 5000rpm comes up

 

[john zibell]

i dont have the timing disk to put on the front of the engine, but as the revs increase the timing advances a long way as the strobe points disappear from view well before 5000rpm comes up

There should be a full advance mark on the flywheel. That it is advancing is good, but they do need to be able to reach full advance. Some folks don't bother with timing at idle or static, they just time to full advance mark.

 

[Brian UK]

The small block engines have always run hotter than the big blocks. My V50 always did anyway, compared to the SPIII. And the plugs were quite dark.

 

[GuzziV65TT]

after lots of reading and thinking I have got some Motul 7100 10w60, its full ester synthetic and SG rated so looks ideal. The big end shells and oil pump are the same on my PG series v65 lump as are the current V7 / Breva 750's so I cannot see any negatives in upgrading to the current specs

 

[johnno]

Hi my friend uses 10/60 all the time in his 100,000 miles plus Monza and swears by it . I will run my 650 and 750 tt/ntx on this when my stock of oil runs out . I would agree with others to check timing and mixture .

 

[johnno]

forgot to say great looking bike ,mine is quite rough looking but it gets hammered on and off road .All the best

 

[GuzziV65TT]

hi mate fancy seeing you here! She really nice, was Jim Strefford's own bike ( of Strefford's Moto Guzzi) Loving ever minute of her!

Re checked timing and mixture today, and both spot on, done 60 miles with wife on back slowly and gently and engine nice and quite, then pushed hard and when red hot you can hear a tough of trust bearing noise, when you pull clutch in.. Will drop the 10w60 and new filter in and see how we get on

 

[johnno]

IS this the man who hates t5 on 16 inch wheels ?

 

[GuzziV65TT]

yup got a 21" front now Johnno