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Small Block replacement

guzzirider

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
160
There is a need in general I think for a modern smaller Guzzi motor to replace the 750 Breva / Nevada / V7 Classic unit.

800cc lightweight with around 80rwbhp would be ideal but I can't see it happening- Piaggio have Aprilia to sell that sort of bike.
 
Re:Stelvio TT

Is the engine in the 800GS not just a bridled version of the 1200cc engine, like I understand was/is the case with the R850 models — and is the case with the Breva and Griso 850?

The Bellagio engine comes close to what you're suggesting, guzzirider, but it too is a modified 1100cc engine.

How are Guzzi going to make an engine that delivers around 80 rwbhp for 800cc, with a technology that makes the 1200cc engine in the Norge deliver around that amount?!
 
Re:Stelvio TT

RJVB wrote:
Is the engine in the 800GS not just a bridled version of the 1200cc engine, like I understand was/is the case with the R850 models — and is the case with the Breva and Griso 850?
!

The F800GS motor is the new vertical twin (built by Rotax) that is found in other F800 series bikes. I have a friend who purchased the F800S and loves the bike. Sport style with detachable hard bags ..nce set up.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2 ... F800GS.htm
 
Re:Stelvio TT

RJVB wrote:
Is the engine in the 800GS not just a bridled version of the 1200cc engine, like I understand was/is the case with the R850 models — and is the case with the Breva and Griso 850?

The Bellagio engine comes close to what you're suggesting, guzzirider, but it too is a modified 1100cc engine.

How are Guzzi going to make an engine that delivers around 80 rwbhp for 800cc, with a technology that makes the 1200cc engine in the Norge deliver around that amount?!

Well of course 80bhp from an 800cc twin is possible- but not from Moto Guzzi!

If they really wanted to, they could design a new motor but they won't because it does not fit Piaggios plan. Instead the small block motor will sell less and less as it gets obsolete until it dies.
 
Re:Stelvio TT

I have no idea how possible it would be with a complete re-design — or taking a stock V-twin that does the job and just mounting it sideways (after possibly modifying it to be 90º of course B) ).

You may be right. But then, why the range of V7 models that is seeing the light? Even the Nevada seems to be maintained, despite earlier rumours. Creating a vintage market seems unlikely as a dying spasm of the engine equipping the models. And don't forget that the Breva 750 is used as a police bike in Italy (with a fairing that isn't very aesthetic but does look effective).
I'd hope that means that either Piaggio think the engine can be kept from going obsolete — and let's face it, it does deliver enough usable power even if way less than what's fashionable — or they foresee a replacement. The current "small-block" offering doesn't really compete with Aprilia's medium-CC offering (except for the possible exception of the Breva 750).
 
Re:Stelvio TT

Anything is possible a 4 valve head high compresion pistons dual cam head blah blah blah. But is it likely....no. I think as long as Aprillia is part of the family why build another small dual sport, the Aprilia offerings (Caponard?) are pretty capable but scarce over here.
 
Re:Stelvio TT

guzzirider wrote:
There is a need in general I think for a modern smaller Guzzi motor to replace the 750 Breva / Nevada / V7 Classic unit.
800cc lightweight with around 80rwbhp would be ideal but I can't see it happening- Piaggio have Aprilia to sell that sort of bike.
Be careful what you wish for:

Mana 850 TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Engine
Aprilia 90° longitudinal V twin four stroke. Liquid cooled. Single overhead cam with chain drive, four valves per cylinder
Total displacement
839.3 cc
Maximum power at crank
56 kW (76.1 HP) at 8,000 rpm


All it needs is turned 90 degrees in the frame. :dry:
 
Re:Stelvio TT

Oops, my reply was to waspp.

Todd, do you have anything against adapting that motor to Guzzi specifics? (Damn, I'd welcome that oil sight-glass! B) )
 
Re:Stelvio TT

RJVB wrote:
Todd, do you have anything against adapting that motor to Guzzi specifics? (Damn, I'd welcome that oil sight-glass! B) )
It will be the end of the era if Piaggio starts stuffing Aprilia motors in Guzzis, sorry.
 
Re:Stelvio TT

In a way, yes. But how much motor development can we hope Guzzi will continue to do? (heck, how much did they do before the take-over?!) As long as there's an adaptation done by Guzzi, influx of new (for the brand) technology could be a welcome thing...

(now, if they'd go stick in a Harley or BMW motor ... :silly:)
 
Re:Stelvio TT

Hi RJVB et all: Read this post and I'm sorry I couldn't resist the temptation to add my two cents, rubels, drachma or what ever. Please don't even suggest a Harley powerplant. Harleys are harleys and should stay that way ( yeah I know the Evo,and twin cam are good). As for BMW one of the things that convinced me to buy a Guzzi in the first place was a trip to my local BMW dealer to look at the F800GS. After the arrogant, Pompous sales guy with his sweater jauntily tied around his neck suggested I leave a deposit so that when he was able to get his hands on one, I could look at it.... I fell on the floor in hysterical laughter. Besides who wants a Moto Guzzi that sounds like an overworked airpump? I've always looked at it this way... 9 times out of 10 Italian bikes look like bikes and definitely sound like bikes.
Just a thought.
 
FrostBittenCanadian...... yes yes yes could not agree with you more....well said !!!!!!!:woohoo:
 
Why go as far as to Aprilia when it's in the house?

Some refinements I'd guess, a larger sump (-to put Ed out of business :dry: )

DSC00146.jpg


DSC00144.jpg


DSC00143.jpg


DSC00147-1.jpg


Yep, the smallblock with new heads, as used on that unmanned aircraft, build for the Israeli army.
This version is 63 Hp. As the breather limitations has gone with the heads a 100 hp output/litre couldn't be impossible if you add an oil-cooler as well?
 
Guzzi hasn't always had the sideways V twin so what why not come up with a new smaller displacement engine that makes some real HP? Put it in a smaller dual sport, sport bike etc? BMW has done this with the F800 series (Rotax powered) and the bike has been well recieved. A far cry from the HOT but a nice fit to the company to help reach a new market. Aprilia uses the Rotax power plant in some of their bikes, am I talking heresy here?
 
Aprilia used a Rotax 60* in the Mille. Also the single Rotax 650, used for the former BMW 650 and the Jawa. Present BMW 800 are also Rotax.
Rotax makes fine engines, no doubt; Canadian as they are.... ;)

But that doesn't make a Guzzi.
If Piaggio decides to make a 90 hp 800, I can foresee they will come up with a..........
































Tadaaaa:

Shiver:laugh:

mc-apriliastor_383835w.jpg
 
waspp wrote:
Guzzi hasn't always had the sideways V twin so what why not come up with a new smaller displacement engine that makes some real HP?
The transverse V is what makes a Guzzi a Guzzi to me. If they make something else, I'm not interested honestly.
With simple logic, I can foresee that Piaggio Guzzi will likely end up with what Honda did over 25 years ago:
800px-Honda_CX_650_engine.jpg
 
Certainly the transverse V twin has become Guzzi's identity but as a company it would make sense to branch out into other areas of design. The transverse V was around prior to Guzzi grabbing up and running with it. If Piaggo was to sell Guzzi as its new owner I would want a smaller engine (maybe V twin) to put into a series of bikes.

Those water cooled V twin Hondas are a bear to work on by the way!
 
Once again; Guzzi isn't a brand of it's own, it's a Piaggio label.
It's like FIAT. FIAT owns the Lancia, Alfa-Romeo and Ferrari labels - and god only knows how many more.
Look at Piaggio as the two-wheel equality to FIAT; it's Piaggio, Vespa, Gilera, Laverda, Aprilia and Guzzi. + probably some more forgotten.
If they wish to put a sporty bike on the street its Aprilia. A small-wheel scooter is Vespa. And so on.
Guzzi is Guzzi, and I cannot imagine they would make any radical changes to the image without stumbling.
Emission laws will probably force them to make a water-cooled version of the V-motor, as Todd foresay. But they will be in the present traditional segment for a living.

I hope, at least. :laugh:
 
No time to go dig up the image, but what if they went with something else already in the house, the 3-cylinder transverse, erm, W ?
3-cylinder engines are mighty fashionable I have the impression.

And that does remind me of another design that would seem logical to put in transversely, but is completely different: Wankel. I've always been attracted to the design. Thoughts?
 
Todd: there's a forum bug here. This thread has clearly been split off the Stelvio TT thread, and/but when I try to subscribe to this one, I instead get subscribed to the mother thread (which I already was)!
 
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