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startus interruptus

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by Callan09, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. Callan09

    Callan09 Just got it firing!

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    Nearly 3 years I've had the bike and finally stuck on the roadside with what appears to be a case of the dreaded Startus Interruptus. Decided to do the mod to the starter relay power wire. Bike is a 2011 Sport 8v. Disconnected the wire to the solenoid and hit the starter button to find which one of these electrical components was the one to send the new wire to. I thought I found the starter relay when I felt it click, it even has a picture of a switch on the side of it. 5 seconds later another click, trouble is it came from another component, I didn't expect that. this component is more retangular and thinner in shape. The writing on the side of this is FA 12V20A. Should I be re wiring both of them, or just the one that clicks first, Im not sure what the second component is. Can anyone shed some light on my situation....thanks.
     
    Alan R Crawford likes this.
  2. Mackers

    Mackers Cruisin' Guzzisti GT Contributor

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    Callan, I'd recommend firstly cleaning the battery terminals and the ground from the starter to the engine block. The former on my B11 built up some grunge and the latter was not tightly screwed on. Eventually I cured my problem by finding that the positive tab to the starter solenoid was a poor fit.
     
  3. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    I think there is a service manual in the resources section that will provide the relay location. If that fails, go to the schematic in the same section. You can identify the relay by the wires that run to it. Don't guess or you will create not solve a problem.
     
  4. Callan09

    Callan09 Just got it firing!

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    Thanks John, none of the schematics in the resources area helped as none of the coloured wires on the different models matched with my bike. I've managed at last to find a diagram that matches my bike at least 90% with the colouring of the wires. I'm sure I've managed to identify all the components under my seat, seems like there's 5 relays, 2 are mini relays and 3 micro relays. Anyway it looks like when I press the starter button the first click I felt was from the start-up maintenance relay, then 5 seconds later the second click is from the start-up relay. All the info I've found on the website mention running the new power wire to the start-up relay, nothing about what to do with the start-up maintenance relay. Don't really know what it does, but judging on the clicks I felt, it does it first.
     
  5. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Guzzi have changed the way the start relays work, adding the starter maintenance relay.
    The wire to replace is the one from Fuse B (2) to pin 3 of the start relay. It probably also goes to pin 3 of the other relay too (normally coloured yellow). So instead of being fed from fuse B, which in turn is fed via the main ignition switch, it is fed direct from the battery via a 15A fuse. I would actually do the same to both relays. There is a high current passing through those relays to operate the solenoid. It is highly likely that the contacts in the ignition switch are not rated for that. Sometimes, turning the ignition switch off then on again can clean those contacts and allow the start to happen.
    The other thing to note is that the current drawn through fuse B is much higher than 15A, but normally it is only for a very short time. When there is some resistance in that circuit and the solenoid does not operate fully, this high current remains, and often blows the fuse. The trick is, when you just get the click and no crank, to flick the start button out to the kill position. This will save the fuse from blowing normally.
     
  6. whysub

    whysub Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I had this problem and doing the mod had no effect. An auto electrician stripped ny starter motor to estabish why, and found a big lump of dried grease. This was removed, starter motor reattached and it's been perfect ever since.
     
  7. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    I have found dried grease inside the solenoid housing which slowed the movement. Cleaned it out and smeared a little oil on the plunger and all was well.
     
  8. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Should be oil free - just sayin' after many (too many) years in the heavy electrical industry
     
  9. Callan09

    Callan09 Just got it firing!

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    Went to the local dealer to try and find out what the start-up maintenance relay is actually for, coz I would prefer to change the wiring as little as possible. If it's not necessary to run power wires to both relays,then thats what I would prefer. They hadn't heard of a maintenance relay before?? Must admit they haven't been Guzzi dealers for long, so we will see!
     
  10. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Well the question is, is dried grease better, 'cos that's what was already there.

    I think the maintenance relay is something to do with holding the starter motor engaged until the engine has started. That used to be done just by the ECU.
     
  11. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    If you check out the wiring diagram, both relays are fed from Fuse 2. Suggest you remove the green/black wire from the hot side of this fuse holder, and wire in the direct feed from the battery.
     
  12. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Any oil/grease will attract dirt. Add in the dirt/grime that somehow gets attracted to this area and you have grease. Keep it all going for long enough and you have dried grease - hence the issues.

    If the solenoid plunger is clean, very little grime will stick to it and it will last much longer, without issue.

    In the electrical world, particularly heavy industry, large contactors and relays are used, without any problems for many years - bikes should be the same...
     
    whysub likes this.
  13. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Makes you wonder why Bosch put grease in there on assembly. The plunger and inside of the solenoid are both brass, naturally slippery, so as you say, should not need lubrication if properly designed. I did find a small lip on the end of the brass lining of the solenoid coil,which might have been catching something, but eased it off with a sharp knife.
     
  14. guzzijimbo

    guzzijimbo Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    My Breva had the "wont crank blues" when cold, I tried the mod with no luck, I might need flogging but I ran a wire from the battery through a 15amp fuse then to a starter button I located tucked away south of the seat and on to the solenoid, it works a treat, don't tell anyone. :worried:
     
  15. KRHguzi

    KRHguzi Tuned and Synch'ed

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    The problem with the starting circuit is too high of resistance from the battery to the solenoid. That being the issue I added another relay that is energized by the wire that went to the solenoid. The power comes from the battery through a 15 amp fuse to the starter solenoid.
    This simple wiring modification cured the startus interruptus on my 1200 sport and leaves the stock electrical interlocks in place.
     
  16. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    The mod we have all talked about does exactly the same thing, just without the addition of an extra relay.
    Guzzijimbo, in your case it is possible that the start relay was not making good contact inside. It would not be the first relay in the world to be faulty.
     
  17. guzzijimbo

    guzzijimbo Tuned and Synch'ed GT Contributor

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    Thanks Brian.
    I'm a bit sick of it and will stick with my crude cure, although it dose hold some terrors!!
     
  18. Richard Martin

    Richard Martin Just got it firing!

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    After advise from this forum and consultation with an auto electrician, a new wire was taken directly from the battery to both the primary starter relay ( smaller one ) and the secondary relay ( square one ), replacing the existing yellow wires. A slightly heavier gauge of wire was used than the original and an " in line " 30 amp fuse installed. This set up by passes the 15 amp fuse in the block of fuses under the rear seat. Seems to work like a charm.
     
  19. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Thanks for that confirmation.
     
  20. Callan09

    Callan09 Just got it firing!

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    Have basically ended up doing the same as Richard Martin. Checked with an auto electrician who confirmed the fix should work,and both relays should be done as they work together. Now have 30amp. inline fuse and increased from 2mm. to 5mm. power wire attached to battery direct. The electrician who has quite a few years in the industry still found it hard to accepted the fact a motorcycle only 3 years old,and well maintained should have the said problem. Anyway fingers crossed,heres hoping it solves my NO GO situation.
     

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