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startus interruptus

Discussion in 'BNS12 Chat & Tech' started by Callan09, Nov 21, 2014.

  1. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    The problem arises because by design, the power to energise the solenoid is fed through the ignition switch. This switch does not have contacts rated for 25A. Unfortunately Guzzi designers seem to be blind to this.
     
  2. KRHguzi

    KRHguzi Tuned and Synch'ed

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    The starter solenoid does not have a 25 amp draw , closer to 7 amps The real problem is the resistance through the multiple interlocks and connectors between the battery and the solenoid that have degraded over time . If you use the output from the existing starter relay to pull in the contacts on a relay that is powered straight from the battery to power the solenoid it cures the starting problems on the CARC bikes without cutting into the harness and without losing any of the interlocks and more importantly without costing a lot. Mine was done from crap I had on hand and took 20 minutes of time.
     
  3. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    There are two coils in the starter solenoid, the larger one is used to pull the solenoid in, and engage the starter pinion. There is also a smaller coil used to hold the solenoid in. When the solenoid makes contact, the larger coil is shorted out, leaving the lower current one running.
    That pull in coil takes over 25 Amps. Of course you are unlikely to see that current if trying to measure it as normally it is only there for a fraction of a second. But if there is any resistance in the circuit feeding it, then it doesn't pull in the solenoid completely, thus not making the starter contact, and so not shorting that coil out. This is when the 15A fuse blows.
    Fuses are thermal devices, they will happily take more than their rated current for a very short time, but subject them to that current for longer, and they blow as they have time to heat up and melt.

    Yes, of course you can add an extra relay, but you are only duplicating what the start relay was supposed to do in the first place.
     
  4. KRHguzi

    KRHguzi Tuned and Synch'ed

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    If you are blowing the fuse there is some other problem with your starter circuit , a short in the solenoid would be a good place to check. The output from the starter relay at times is not strong enough to activate the starter solenoid but it is enough to reliably pull in the contacts on a second relay which if is connected straight to the battery it will have enough power to solidly pull in the solenoid. It may not be a "pure "solution but it works and beats the crap out trying to push start the bike.
     
  5. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    If still blowing fuses, try cleaning the solenoid plunger and re-fitting it dry.
     
  6. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Yes, blowing the fuse in the start circuit is down to sluggish operation of the solenoid. Either from a poor contact somewhere, or gunge round the solenoid plunger slowing it down. I have yet to hear of a short circuit in a solenoid.
    On the CARC bikes, if you hear the click, but the starter doesn't turn, immediately flick the start button out to the kill position. This will save the fuse.
     
  7. KRHguzi

    KRHguzi Tuned and Synch'ed

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    Try another solenoid, Guzzi won't sell you one but Bosch makes one (Believe its for a VW ) that will fit and work .The only difference is the terminal for the spade connector is oreinted differently.
     
  8. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Why buy another solenoid when all that is required is to clean out the dried grease in the one you have (or do a small mod to the wiring)? The starter motor is made by Bosch for most of the CARC bikes, so most Bosch agents will be able to get parts.
     
  9. KRHguzi

    KRHguzi Tuned and Synch'ed

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    I doubt that dried grease would increase the amperage draw to the point it would blow a fuse. If dried grease would cause the fuse to blow while starting half the vehicles on the road would have blown fuses. Slowing the speed that the armature pulls in will not increase the amperage draw . It sounds more like a internal short . Check the internal resistance and compare it with a known good solenoid, it should be within 10%.
     
  10. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Actually dried grease has caused the slow pull and thus blowing a fuse. The start circuit as designed just isn't that robust. That is one of the reasons why the modification to the starter relay wiring was developed.
     
  11. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    +1 on what John says. This is a physical law and is true.
     
  12. Brian UK

    Brian UK GT Reference

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    Slowing the speed the armature pulls in does not increase the current, but is does make that current flow for a lot longer, and if the armature fails to pull in completely, thus not making the contacts, it does not short out the heavier pull in coil, which does draw well in excess of 15 Amps. This will end up with a blown fuse.
    I cleaned all such dried grease from mine and never had a problem since, which to me suggests that cleaning it cured the problem. If there was an electrical problem within the solenoid, cleaning it would have made no difference. I had already done the mod to the wiring.
     
  13. Saparak

    Saparak Just got it firing!

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    Well I had the alternative relay done by the dealer, the bike went ok for a week then the problem reoccurred. The dealer replaced the relay stating it had always cured in the past and I may have received a faulty one. Unfortunately a couple of weeks later intermittently the issue reoccurred. Normally at its worst on hot days but usually starting after resting for less than 15 min. Then the other day wheeled out of the garage and nothing, it would not start. Three days later and still no life. Contacted the BikeElec guy who explained that he had a recent similar make and model and he was unable to resolve the ECU/starter issue but did put starter button under the seat. He has not heard if the owner was able to resolve the main issue elsewhere.

    I have no option but to get the under seat starter option until i can find a more long term resolution. Any ideas are appreciated?
     
  14. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    Have you done the wiring mod as suggested by Brian_UK (Nov 06) and my reply (Nov 24)? I know you don't want to change your wiring, but it is a design fault that sends the current for the starter solenoid up to the keyswitch and return, resulting in a voltage drop. You won't fix this until you do the mod which is even easier than the 2V models.

    I reiterate, remove the green/black wire from the hot side of Fuse 2's holder (leave it feeding Fuse 1), and wire in a direct feed from the battery positive terminal to Fuse 2 where the green black wire once existed.

    Edit: I see that Richard Martin posted this same fix (Nov 27). Proof is in the results.
     
  15. Callan09

    Callan09 Just got it firing!

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    Had the wiring mod done end of jan. Seemed to have solved the problem, until the last two times i've started the bike. Both times this week pushed the starter first time and the dreaded click,then 5 seconds later click again. I then turned off the ignition, then turned it back on and pushed the starter button again. Both times the bike fires up without any problem!! Now what???do I now have the sticking solenoid situation to sort
     
  16. kiwi dave

    kiwi dave GT Reference

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    If you can, try another known good or new battery. Doesn't sound like a sticking solenoid to me.
     
  17. Oz1200Guzzi

    Oz1200Guzzi High Miler

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    Battery methinks...
     
  18. John Norwood

    John Norwood Just got it firing! GT Contributor

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    I'm trying to find a link to the thread that describes "the mod we have all talked about" assuming it cures the "startus interruptus" problem. Can you help?
     
  19. john zibell

    john zibell Moderator Staff Member GT di Razza Pura

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    Answered in your original thread.
     
  20. John Norwood

    John Norwood Just got it firing! GT Contributor

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    thanks!
     

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