Surrounded by Italian 2 wheelers (& some with 3)

[Muley]

Yesterday was cold and windy here in the normally warm and sunny South, so I uncharacteristically trailered my EV to the Scooter Superstore in Fairburn, GA. This dealership is brand new, and it’s the closest Guzzi shop to me. It’s still over 110 miles from my home, but that’s one of the drawbacks to owning our favorite brand. I needed new wheel bearings, fork seals and service, and a few other minor things, so I decided to take a day off and made an appointment with the mechanic.

The shop sells Guzzi and Aprillia motorcycles as well as Vespa, Piaggio and Aprillia scooters. They even have a few non-Italian brands, but they’re stuck in the back of the store. I have never really wanted to own a scooter, until now that is! The Piaggio MP3 models immediately caught my eye with the two front wheels, and I guess the salesman noticed my interest when he invited me to go on a test ride on the 400cc demo model.

I had my gloves, jacket and helmet in case I wanted to ride one of the new Guzzis, but I’ve been sick with horrible chest congestion and the cold wind took away any enthusiasm I might have had under normal conditions. This might be heresy, but I am underwhelmed with the newer Guzzis. The shop had every model currently being manufactured except the Breva Sport 1200. There were a couple Stelvios, several 750 and 1100 Brevas, Norges, and Grisos, and a Nevada Classic and new Vintage. The Grisos look nice, especially the white one, and the Vintage and Nevada Classic are aesthetically appealing to me, but the Stelvio is downright ugly. I imagine it is a hoot to ride, but where is the Guzzi styling? I don’t believe it would be possible to ever properly clean one due to the frame design and conglomeration of things stuffed inside. Ditto for servicing the beast. It looks simply inaccessible. I can’t get used to the plastic bodywork on the Norge, and the Brevas are just too modern looking. So, I have the Vintage and Nevada Classic left, and the Nevada is just too small for my frame. I guess my poor health might have played a part, but I didn’t see anything that appealed to me more than my current ride, a ’98 EV. However, I promised myself I’ll go back soon for a test ride when I’m feeling better, and see if second impressions are somewhat better.

But the scooters! I suppose I might be getting old (in fact I know I am), but the retro Vespas are just things of beauty to me. The MP3 models took my attention away from the real motorcycles so I accepted the test ride invitation and put on my riding gear. The only strange control on the scooter was the switch that deactivated the front wheel lock, allowing the independent wheels to lean while riding . After I gave the salesman a good scare, deactivating the wheel lock and allowing gravity to pull the bike down on the left while my feet were firmly planted on the floorboard, at which point I instinctively caught the falling scooter with my left leg, I was ready to circle the parking lot a few times. I took off down a nice, rolling road with little traffic and was amazed at how quite and smooth the little scooter was. I tested front stability in some loose gravel in a parking lot and headed back to the shop grinning from ear to ear. This was major fun! While not ready to challenge drag bikes, the MP3 had plenty of power, and the salesman claims it will do about 90 mph. The 500cc model, he says, will approach 100! I didn’t exceed 60, but it still had ample get up and go left. At an estimated 60 mpg, this machine could be a real money saver for someone who commutes to work in an urban environment. I would bring one home if I lived and worked in such a place.

I urge everyone on this forum to go out and ride one of these things. I promise you’ll be smiling under the visor.

 

[RJVB]

They *are* nice. We're seeing many of them here, esp. the 125cc model that can be ridden with a car driver's license. Did you see the windscreen? It curves all the way above the ride, weird, but stylish enough. (I'm unsure if the larger engine sizes are currently marketed under the Piaggio brand, or exclusively under the Gilera brand ... and non-styling.)

They're expensive, though. So they're mostly ridden by people in business working clothes.

Some time coming year, there'll be a hybrid, with electric propulsion that can be used for about 50km between recharges, and is amply adequate for city riding. And ... larger engine sizes that can be ridden by anyone. There's a loop in legislation here, which means that anything that has a front wheel basis wider than some limit (the current MP3 is just under it) is no seen as a bike. So can be ridden without a biker's license. That's really causing a lot of discussion here!

Something else with a similar concept that ought to be hitting our streets in a near future:
http://www.scooter-station.com/Peugeot-HYmotion3.html

Now, Muley (and others), tell me something. I've often had the impression that riding a scooter (which I've done often enough) or riding a custom like a California, H-D or something of the sort shouldn't be that different. How different is it, if you disregard automatic trans. vs. manual, the absence of a tank between your knees and the weight? The question comes to mind because of a friend who's looking to replace the GS he hardly rides with a touring-oriented bike, who won't consider the California because he'd never ride something like that, but who in fact rides a scooter most of the time...

 

[Muley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2E2d-29ry8

Check out this video, and try to remember it's for a SCOOTER!

When will Moto Guzzi start making commercials like this? Never mind, I already know the answer.:laugh:

 

[RJVB]

well, if anything this thread taught me at least that one can now embed video in forum posts (for the better or for the worse...)

Anyway, I'm not sure I agree with you completely. First - why would you not be able to do such things with a scooter? A 400 or 500cc scooter isn't any less powerful than a 400 or 500cc "real bike", and the MP3 has seen a lot of R&D to make it behave like if it had only 2 wheels (they just couldn't hide the increased adherence and stability ). Almost the only point in common between a modern-day maxi-scoot like a T-Max (yuck) or the new Gilera 800 (wow!) and the Vespas, Lambrettas etc. of old is the fact you're sitting on them as on a stool and that you have a sort of protective fairing. (Remember, traditional scooters had a gearbox!)

Now, as to the video: have you watched recent MG promotional videos? Frankly, they use the same formula and probably even share a number of sequences. Because what on earth is the eagle doing in this video??

But I'll give it to you that it doesn't make me want to go out and buy one (hmmm, maybe one of those horses, they look tasty? :silly. Not like that video of a couple travelling through Norway on a big red bike ... that was maybe a very direct attempt by another European brand to affirm that even in Norge, they provide de big (red) touring bikes...

 

[Mike.C]

Interesting that they use a Cheetah as a comparison..

Cheetas are one of the most genetically endangered species on the planet, several years ago it was discovered that there is almost no genetic variation in the population, which could lead to a very rapid demise if a disease were to spread for which thhe population has no immunity. One can only wonder at the parallel of a bad batch of gear boxes for example leading to the three wheelers demise.

IMHO these things are a death trap - without the issue of "bike control" required for two wheels they makes it too easy for an inexperienced rider to out ride their ability.

 

[RJVB]

what do you mean exactly with "bike control required"?

A minimum training is strongly advised here, and obligatory for people who obtained their driver's license after January 2008 (one needs a minimum of 2 years experience anyway). The idea is that the absence of a manual gearbox and the presence of advanced braking systems (coupled, ABS) reduce the need for bike control training as almost all attention can be focussed on directional control. I've often argued that it would be reasonable to allow progressive access to bigger engines on maxi-scoots while people gain experience. The main hurdle there is administrative (we already have way too many types of licenses). The direct access that's now possible because of the uncovered loophole is much more problematic - probably. We'd have to see.

(and if you see how the T-Max crowd behaves — who are supposed to have had their formal and obligatory training — one can raise some very legitimate questions as to how educational that training is...)

 

[Muley]

Rene said:

well, if anything this thread taught me at least that one can now embed video in forum posts (for the better or for the worse...)

Anyway, I'm not sure I agree with you completely. First - why would you not be able to do such things with a scooter? A 400 or 500cc scooter isn't any less powerful than a 400 or 500cc "real bike"

In the case of embedding the video, I simply pasted the link to the video, and what you see magically appeared on the post. I certainly didn't try to add it in like that. I was also surprised that it worked:silly:

Since you brought up the issue of scooter vs. motorcycle handling, I do have one major concern. You sit "in" a scooter rather than "on" it. I wondered about shifting weight and leaning in serious turns. How would one shift their weight significantly on a scooter? If you tried to "hang off" the side, for example, in knee dragging curves, could you keep your feet on the footboard? I would think that the larger, more powerful scooters would eventually entice some riders to push the cornering envelope too far. (I actually have no particular person in mind with that comment )

I also wondered about a blowout on one of the front tires on this scooter. Would it instantly crash? A front blowout is not a good thing on a real motorcycle, but it is possible to stay upright. Could weight be shifted quickly enough on the MP3 to keep it under control on one front wheel :huh:

 

[Muley]

I just checked out the Gilera 800. Now I have another thing to worry about - a big scooter blowing my EV off the road like it was standing still The only thing that could be even worse is if they come in a nice shade of pink like the little Vespas I saw Friday. Imagine a big, PINK scooter leaving you in the dust:S

 

[RJVB]

Not sure how many people are going to agree, but looking at the physics of things, you don't steer a bike by shifting weight. Knee-dragging is to know where the ground is, and hanging off modifies the combined centre of gravity such as to allow the bike to remain just a bit more upright. When you hang off, you act against (on) the handlebars in exactly the same way (though less controlled) as when you countersteer directly. The average rider's weight is insignificant against the average bike inertia and combined forces that tend to keep the vehicle in the orientation it had.

I've seen people hanging off a big heavy T-Max scoot, but those have a big centre, erm, hump (I posted a video I think of the Dark Dog tour a while ago, showing just that). You'll also find pictures of people pushing MP3s to their limits

Seeing how the front system works on the MP3, I'd expect that the wheel just comes down in case of a blowout. And since the wheelbasis is small, you might even not have that much torque driving you off-course.

The Gilera doesn't look like a scooter at all from behind. It's got a chain... It just looks weird (and sounds quite nice).

Big PINK scooters. Yes. That's an issue. Many of us here are used to being "blown off" the road by T-Max and big Burgman flying saucers. But something big and pink (and with painted flowers?) ... that'd certainly have no problems leaving me behind at a green light, almost but not entirely voluntarily.

I'd be too busy laughing my ass off :silly:

 

[Mike.C]

RJVB wrote:

what do you mean exactly with "bike control required"?

What I mean is - It's too easy. At least with 2 wheels it requires "some" practice before braving the road with three anyone can just jump on and go without a thought for the issues involved.

Now I am sure there is a great argument that they will allow practice without the complication of bike control etc etc etc, but I am thinking on a very fundamental level.. Bike on road, rider with zero practice time on a bike dealing with bike road riding issues, problem!

 

[Muley]

Mike C. wrote:

It's too easy. At least with 2 wheels it requires "some" practice before braving the road with three anyone can just jump on and go without a thought for the issues involved.

Mike, I don't think you quite understand the MP3. It's not like a trike by any means. When you accelerate, even slightly, the front wheels "unlock", and it behaves/feels exactly like any two-wheeled motorcycle or scooter. It must be ridden just like a two wheeler. The big difference is that it is far more stable in the front and can handle bumps, loose gravel, wet surfaces, etc. much better than your average scooter with the tiny wheels. The front wheels are only "locked" when parked, that's it.

The thing really is a hoot to ride, and I salute Piaggio for developing such an interesting vehicle. Maybe there's hope for Moto Guzzi after all.

 

[RJVB]

Indeed - I've seen people go down with them at stand-still.

The point remains that it is not a good idea to give access to what's essentially a PTW to someone who doesn't have any specific training at all. That may still be doable in places where it's just "you, your bike and an endless open road", but here it's suicide (and suicide in congested traffic isn't without collateral effects...)

Still, it's a wonderful machine, and (to repeat myself), I'm (almost) proud that this was developed/marketed by Piaggio instead of by BMW or some oriental company.

 

[Holt]

RJVB wrote:

Indeed - I've seen people go down with them at stand-still.

Huh?

Are you guys really allowed to drive scooters without an A-license? A1, I think for anything bigger than 125 CC ?
(Really don't know too much about the new classes for motorcycle licenses. Took mine back in 74 or so, when it was A, no more, no less.)

 

[RJVB]

Yes. In fact anyone who's had a B (car) license for 2y at least and obtained before january this year can just go out and buy any kind of bike with upto 125cc engine size and no more than 15hp. In Italy, the limit used to be higher, in fact, but it's now down too to 125cc.
A1 is age-related in France, for youngsters.

What shocks me much more is that I've come to the conclusion that it is apparently no longer an obligation in the Netherlands to wear a helmet while riding something of 50cc or less. Wonder if that's a population control measure in disguise :-/

 

[Holt]

RJVB wrote:

Yes. In fact anyone who's had a B (car) license for 2y at least and obtained before january this year can just go out and buy any kind of bike with upto 125cc engine size and no more than 15hp. In Italy, the limit used to be higher, in fact, but it's now down too to 125cc.
A1 is age-related in France, for youngsters.

What shocks me much more is that I've come to the conclusion that it is apparently no longer an obligation in the Netherlands to wear a helmet while riding something of 50cc or less. Wonder if that's a population control measure in disguise :-/

AFAK the license numbering should be the same all over EU, so right; A1 are for the youngsters, plain A for real people.
Also we do have an exception; for those who had their B-license before 1976 driving any kind of motorcycle are allowed. Meaning my wife who sat on a bike once in 1978 (I cannot forget. Believe me! -and she was only my pillion!) actually are allowed to drive whatever she want.
I wonder if it's really free to go without helmets in Holland, might be more like Denmark, where wearing helmets are compulsorary but nobody, including the police, seems to care.
The improvement of the human genome might be the secret agenda.:dry:

 

[RJVB]

You're probably right with the numbering thing. I never bothered to learn what A1 stood for (or the other letter codes, and believe me, I was supposed to in order to get my license) as they just didn't concern me. I don't plan to be a bus or truck driver, and while I wouldn't mind losing a number of years, that's both not feasible at this time and I'd not have it interfere with my current rights to ride the bike I own :silly:

Helmet wearing: yeah, that crossed my mind. Thing is, here rules are such that you're entitled to a fine if you even ride a bike in or out of your garage without wearing a helmet (fine is the same as for not wearing safety belts in a car and includes malus points). With that kind motivation, I'd guess the police do care :S
Reminder: those 50cc bikes are allowed to attain 45km/h, most will probably do more, and crashing at 50km/h is equivalent to falling from 3rd floor.

 

[Wonder B]

Yes T-Max & other big scooters (that Gilera Fuoco 800 is a monster, I saw it at my Guzzi dealer) can leave many bike riders in their mirrors...
Check out this pic of Dominique Sarron (former Grand Prix motorcycle pilot) going at it on a T-Max (back in 2004)
Here's somme hanging off the side knee-dragging action for you...

And some more!

But when reading Muley's initial comment on the beauty of the bikes, I can only say that to each his own taste... he hates the Stelvio look which I find fabulous while I find those mega scooters mostly ugly for lack of better word. AND I I am not too keen either on this revival look which generated the Classics series like we see flourishing under many different marks like Ducati & the like. Oh well...

 

[RJVB]

Since the issue of commercials has been brought up (this has nothing to do with scooters, I think) ... here's one of Honda's Power of Dreams series :silly:

 

[Muley]

Wonder B wrote:

But when reading Muley's initial comment on the beauty of the bikes, I can only say that to each his own taste... he hates the Stelvio look which I find fabulous while I find those mega scooters mostly ugly for lack of better word.

I never said the MP3 was purty, just the Vespas. I did say the Stelvio was ugly, but also said it was probably fun to ride. Now I wouldn't necessarily buy a motorcycle for looks, and I certainly wouldn't buy a scooter for aesthetics. The later is more of a utilitarian verhicle. That said, most folks would say the color scheme on my HDM EV is pretty disgusting, and I might even agree. But when you buy something 3rd hand, at a decent price, then the color is secondary.

I am of an older generation that likes the look of simplistic, naked bikes like the old Brit bikes, some present-day Harleys, some Guzzis and even some of the older Hondas (like the '84 Night Hawk I saw at the Scooter store). To be perfectly honest, there are very few modern motorcycles out there that really look sharp, to me anyway. But if money were no object, I would be very happy to waltz into the nearest Guzzi dealer and plop down the cash for every bike they had. After a year or two of trying them all out I would offer the surplus ones to all of you folks on this list, and I'd just keep a few for myself That is, if money was no object:woohoo: