Suspension Stuff

[Bill Hagan]

I say "stuff" to justify why this is not on the tech side of the house, as I suspect that the many others who actually know what they are talking about when they address suspension issues might expect this sort of thing to be there.

Anyway, got an email from cmgies who asked me about the front fork upgrade to my Norge. After I responded, decided I would post that here as I think others might be interested. Here is what I said:

Just read a comparo in the Dec '08 MCN about HyperPro & Ohlins as upgrades for sport-tourers. Worth reading. Also just bought and am slogging thru Andrew Treavitt's latest glossy paperback on sport bike suspension.

The most interesting comment in the MCN piece was the view that the shocks, front and rear, did improve things, but in no way so much (in their own seat-of-the-pants sensing or tech equipment findings) as the enthusiastic reviews of actual buyers.

Oh, before I forget, they said that the HyperPro equipment used there (for a R1100RT) was, after was said and done, more a SPORT-touring set-up, and the Ohlins, more sport-TOURER. Assuming the same is generally true of I got from our own racerx, am sure glad I got the HyperPro.

I am probably guilty of that post-purchase giddiness. That said, I have put quite a few K (8?) on the rear, and 3K on the new front end, 1200S forks with HyperPro progressive 1200S springs.

Anyone who has ridden a stock Norge (which, IMO, is the sport-touring equivalent of a 1972 Cadillac Coupe deVille!) and then rides mine will only know they are on the same machine because of looks and grunt. And, the grunt is now much more usable.

I will also say that I "think" I can tell the difference in the front end, but, as it was away three months for the engine rebuild, I'm not sure I could pass a blind "tasting." I can say that it is a delight to ride. In addition to my 1K-mile ride fro Houston to Atlanta, followed shortly thereafter by my 2K-mile r/t to Virginia last week or so, did a brief but enthusiastic ride in the hills on it with Kathi this past weekend. Not one scrape on the centerstand between Houston, Baltimore, and back, and, on the two-up romp, I was not as responsible as a 61-yo guy ought to be, and we did not touch down once nor did I ever worry about coming out of curves that, previously, would have been vomitus-in-helmet events. :woohoo:

We all know that many of us--including ich--really do not exploit the capabilities of our stock suspensions. That flows from laziness, fear, mystery of the "black art," and more. But I am also VERY sure that the stock Norge was--for my purposes, i.e., an old guy trying to make up for missed motorcycling in the "gap"--so deficient as to be almost dangerous. I have a SPORT-tourer now, and possibly a SPORT-TOURER, when I had little of either before, at least for venturing off city streets or the slab.

Bill

 

[Allan]

I have the HyerPro progressive spring and fork kit on my 1200 Sport. It did improve the handling but not in a way that I could tell you that my bike now handles wonderfully. The fork spring @ oil swap work better then the rear spring swap. I have no complaints with the front of the motorbike but the rear still wallows around a bit in fast corners and uneven pavement. I am on the search for a complete rear shock swap, either an Ohlins or Penske. Hitherto I haven't found anything that will fit other then a HyperPro shock.

Recently I was able to put my 1200 Sport on one of those scales that read front and rear weights. I was surprised to see that the bike was 17 lbs heavier at the front, and this is with the panniers mounted. I would have guesse that the bike would have been biased towards the rear. 280 lbs on the front & 263 lbs on the rear of the bike. Yep, the thing is heavy.

 

[pcarnut]

Bill, I'm curious. Would you say the ride is more harsh than the original? Or just more controlled. The freeway expansion joints around here can be jarring and I would certainly like handling that is more sporting but not at the expense of beating me up.
Thanks. R.

 

[guzzibob]

I have the Hyperpro progressive front spring (softer of the 2 options) & PD valve emulator set up, done personally by Racer X (Todd), on my Norge. The front end control is way, way better than it was stock, for sure, no doubts about that whatsoever. Especially obvious in the canyons, but even on the freeways, where I did not like the "floating on a cloud" stock feeling. I would say the ride is, maybe, marginally (10% at most) harsher in some repeated bump situations, but like I said far more controlled & effective everywhere. I went for it after discussing with a local having the same set up on a Jackal, telling him I wanted much more control in the canyons, but still a comfortable ride for long distance. He said that is exactly what I would get-& I feel I did. Let's remember that this set up is adjustable, & may take some trial & error. Two springs to choose from, plenty of adjustment in spring pre-load & the PD valve emulators to work out, plus oil viscosity if you want to fool with that. My Norge was Racer X's Norge test bed for him. It was good enough for my purposes that I have had no desire to mess with it further, which Todd was willing to do without charge, while I wait. Been too busy rolling up close to 10,000 all purpose miles since. What it might mean to a Breva 1200 Sport I can't say, since that front end is supposedly a lot better than the stock Norge-which was way, way too soft/freeway touring biased for me. I would suggets you contact Todd/Guzzi-Tech, tell him your needs (weight, 1 or 2 up, riding style & type of roads roads you travel), go from there.

 

[ParCan]

Hi all
I guess you have been waiting for me to chime in on here

Suspention i think is very mutch a personal thing. It's about what you want to do with a Bike. If you want to race around the lanes you'd also not buy a Norge. If you want to tour you'd not buy a VTR1000.

What has been proven to me on 4 diferent machines now is that Trick toys and vast quantities of expense is not what you actually need to be doing.

VFR 750. Bought at 22K Miles. Work done at 40 K Miles.
I had a Front spring change (10% harder and shorter spacers. Net result 5% harder at 50% travel) and oil change.
Rear Shock was rebuilt with new fluid. Everything else was stock.
The bike went from ok handling all round to somethign to rival many of the sport 600's of the time. It was precise and predictable, even 2 up.

VFR 800. Bought at 33 K Miles. Work done 2 weeks after i bought it.
Front: 10% harder springs and 5 mm longer spacers. 7.5 SAE fork fluid.
Stock rear shock rebuilt with new Fluid.
Fluids replaced again at 68 K Miles.
The bike went from wayward at best to like it was on rails. 100% Precise, even on the power.

VFR800 (2) bought at 45 K Miles. Sold to buy the Breva at 55 K miles.
Same treatment. Same result.

Brave V1100. Bought new - work done at 6K miles.
Stock Front springs. 10 SAE fork fluid.
Stock rear shock. 15% up on the rear spring. ( 10 KG)
Bike went from soggy, wallowing, bland and sometimes scary to Predictable with a frrmer ride and much more precise all round cornering.

The Sachs shocks on the Breva and Norge are towards the bottom end of the market. I think that the stock shock is "Adequate" The front forks are never going to be good, are they good enough - yes.

I also would say that anyone can make a bike with ohlins handle like a shopping trolly with 3 stuck wheels.
The trick is getting the front and back working together as a pair. How my friendly suspention guy does this i will never know but he does.

The HyperPro stuff Todd sells is an upgrade on the stock units, no dount about that.
The rear spring is what made the bigest change to my Breva.
The progressive front spring upgrade i'm gona sit on the fence with.

The trick is in setting the stuff up. Preload and damping, front and rear.

ParCan

 

[GTM®]

ParCan wrote:

The trick is getting the front and back working together as a pair. How my friendly suspension guy does this i will never know but he does.

The HyperPro stuff Todd sells is an upgrade on the stock units, no doubt about that.
The rear spring is what made the bigest change to my Breva. The progressive front spring upgrade i'm gonna sit on the fence with.

The trick is in setting the stuff up. Preload and damping, front and rear.

Well put on all above. The progressive fork springs are very sensitive to proper set up, and oil level(s). The YSS PD valves takes the forks one step up.
Front springs: There are two different fork springs to offer based on weight/riding style;
GT HP Spring Kits
Breva/Norge, Rising Rate Fork springs with oil: 7.5 to 12 N/mm --OR-- 1200 Sport, RRFS with oil: 8.7 to 13 N/mm
Rear spring (for either above): 110 to 155 N/mm

 

[Bill Hagan]

ParCan wrote:

Hi all
I guess you have been waiting for me to chime in on here

Suspention i think is very mutch a personal thing. It's about what you want to do with a Bike. If you want to race around the lanes you'd also not buy a Norge. If you want to tour you'd not buy a VTR1000.

What has been proven to me on 4 diferent machines now is that Trick toys and vast quantities of expense is not what you actually need to be doing.

<snip>

The trick is in setting the stuff up. Preload and damping, front and rear.

ParCan

Just got tagged by the "your post disappeared if it ever existed" gremlin here. Grrrrrr.

Anyway, lucky you, as whatever I said before was longer than what I'm going to post this time!

Here's the gist.

par can is, as Todd pointed out, indubitably right ... comma but.

I just posted in the "possible Norge buyer" thread a piece about this issue along with other unwisdoms.

https://www.guzzitech.com/index.php?op ... rt=20#1301

There, I said, with respect to the Norge's suspension:

"As for suspension, despite parcan's attempt here in another, more focused, thread -- deceptively entitled "Suspension Stuff" -- to make it all sound technical and capable of scientific analysis, all I can say to him and that is ... poppycock. I've just finished Andrew Treavitt's new book on motorcycle suspensions, and realize now that no matter how you dress it up with formulae and ritual, it's like meteorology, i.e., no more science than alchemy.

No, of course, it's real, but I'll never get there. I'll pretend it's an art, and that I can finger-paint enough to muddle through. I am grateful, however, that for my purposes (riding too fast, two-up, heavily loaded and on twisting secondary roads, I very much doubt that a Norge could be better set up than mine is just now. The stock set-up was, for me, riding as I/we do, not only unsat, but dangerous, and no amount of tuning with smock-coated suspensionologists would have gotten it to tolerable, much less good. If one were to ride with ...erm ... less fighting weight than I -- 215 stark nekkid, and not a sight for civilized folks -- plus riding gear, espressoo machines, etc., and do so unladen on more-or-less straight roads with an occasional sweeper, I think the '07 stock would be OK. Otherwise, I agree with phordman about the Caddy comparison, and think "toys" may be necessary to get to something you can work with."

Oh, and pcarnut, re your question to me, "Bill, I'm curious. Would you say the ride is more harsh than the original? Or just more controlled. The freeway expansion joints around here can be jarring and I would certainly like handling that is more sporting but not at the expense of beating me up."

When I leave it set (as I usually do) for combat loads, i.e., two-up and the esperesso machine, etc., it's a buckboard when I ride by myself on Atlanta's cratered pavement. But, when set for the conditions, it's silken. I've broken the code (by lucky accident, admittedly, not knowledge or skill). YMMV.

Bill

 

[Griso Guy]

RacerX,
What would you do suspension of the Griso? Anything or nothing?

Thanks,
Doug