UPDATE>>>Hard Cold Starting...

[IBA 270]

Hi gang!

I'm back with my first of what will probably be many questions on my new to me '02 Le Mans. I just pick the bike up last night, and I've got a little cleaning and sorting to do, but all in all it's a nice example.

One of the things that's perplexing me is a reluctance to start when cold. I'm talking 60-70 degrees ambient, and the bike is cold. It turns over for a very long time before it starts to fire, then several more revolutions before it finally does, but very rough at that. It seems very rich...

It appears to have stock ECO...miles are 22K (ish). I need to give it a full service with fluids, filters...what else? A quick twin max run showed it needs a smidge of TB synch as well.

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated!

 

[john zibell]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

Are you opening the throttle? If so, just very little opening should be sufficient or use the cold start lever. Could be worn or excessively gaped spark plugs. Also there may be a problem with one of the temperature sensors. Other than the cold starting, does she run well?

 

[IBA 270]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

Are you opening the throttle? If so, just very little opening should be sufficient or use the cold start lever. Could be worn or excessively gaped spark plugs. Also there may be a problem with one of the temperature sensors. Other than the cold starting, does she run well?

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply...no, not touching the throttle at all, only a little on the enriching lever. Once running, it seems to run well, but idles maybe slightly low. After she was warmed up, I got a chance to do some roll on's up to the ton. Man, this is one of the best pulling motorycles I've owned for top gear roll on's...very nice! Coming down to a stop though, she ALMOST wants to die. I haven't pulled the plugs yet, but that's at the top of the list along with the full service.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

S'not an enrichment lever. It's simply a fast idle cam that holds the throttle slightly wider open. All enrichment is taken care of by the ETS, ATS and ECU. Use the lever a bit more and you shouldn't need to touch the throttle. Idle speed should be about 1200 when warm. Sounds like it needs a tune-up.

Pete

 

[IBA 270]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

Pete,

Yea, I don't know why I keep calling them "enrichment levers" even though I haven't owned a piece of machinery with one for years! Yea, it needs to tune up. Idle is rough. I need to check valves...the whole nine yards. I hoping there are as easy as the oilhead was (if not easier) to work on!

 

[Penis Rotor]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

Much easier. You'll probably find all the relevant stuff for V11's written up in detail here or on V11.Com but its all mindlessly simple and boring as batshit! Get stuck in.

Buying VDSTS from Todd or whoever will make things a lot easier and the model specific stuff is so sodding cheap it's dumb not to buy it.

Pete

 

[AllanK]

Re: Hard Cold Starting...

I would suggest opening the fast idle lever all the way to start the bike when it is cold (only).
I have been doing that with my VII LeMans for the last 8years and it starts like a dream.
Allan K

 

[IBA 270]

Re: Hard Cold Starting/an update

Ok gang, here's an update...and as always, I appreciate any inpute you might be able to offer.

1) Valves were off...no biggie
2) Plugs (brand new, 100 miles) are indicating very rich, and the right plug is wet.
3) Right TB is wet and dripping fuel from the throttle return spring.
4) Left TB is also dripping fuel, but it isn't wet at least.
5) Bike starts best with the throttle held wide open. Hmmm.

It seems like the fuel injectors might be dirty and sticky. That's a lot of fuel!

Any other ideas? Pics attached;

RH TB

LH TB

Plugs

 

[john zibell]

Suspecting the injectors are a possible culprit looks about right. I'd yank them and send them here http://www.rceng.com/ They do an excellent job with a quick turn around time. At lease after they are reconditioned you can scratch them off the list.

The only other possibility I can think of is the engine temperature sensor says it is below zero temperature wise significantly increasing the amount of fuel delivery. Reading the sensor first would eliminate pulling the injectors. If the sensor is in range, go the injector route.

 

[IBA 270]

Oooooh....didn't even consider the temp sensor. That's a thought. Thanks John for the link.

Ok, here's another question, and probably one for Todd: will the VSTB (or whatever the heck that thing is) read sensor failures? I usually eventually purchase all of that diagnostic stuff as I just enjoy wrenching my own scooters...if it doesn't read the sensors, anyone have the resistence ranges to test it?

 

[GTM®]

Oooooh....didn't even consider the temp sensor. That's a thought. Ok, here's another question, and probably one for Todd: will the VSTB (or whatever the heck that thing is) read sensor failures? I usually eventually purchase all of that diagnostic stuff as I just enjoy wrenching my own scooters...if it doesn't read the sensors, anyone have the resistence ranges to test it?

Don't over-think it... as John states above, the '00~06 Guzzis take a bit of open throttle to get them to fire. Change the plugs and try again... though I do agree that those intake tracts are horribly dirty. RC Eng. here in SoCal does awesome work on injectors... highly recommended.
Yes, the VDST (Vehicle Diagnostic Software Tool) will alert you to failed sensors... but it should be used in conjunction with good mechanical skills/logic; It's not a do-all/end-all magic wand, but you know that already. The sensor ranges are in the service manual.

 

[IBA 270]

Thanks Todd!

Yup, diagnostic tools are great...as long as you know what they're telling you and how to use the information.

My best guess was...and is...fuel injectors. Whenever I turn the key and hear the pump run, I can smell gas nearly immediately and it begins to drip within a few seconds. Left TB isn't bad, but right...well, you can see from pics what that's all about!

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention...again excuse my ignorance if this is supposed to be this way on an '02: The TB's are NOT linked with a hose, but have the nipples capped. This bike has been worked on as evidenced by the "Made in the USA" fuel injection hose and adequete, but non-factory hose clamps.

 

[GTM®]

Thanks Todd!
My best guess was...and is...fuel injectors. Whenever I turn the key and hear the pump run, I can smell gas nearly immediately and it begins to drip within a few seconds. Left TB isn't bad, but right...well, you can see from pics what that's all about!
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention...again excuse my ignorance if this is supposed to be this way on an '02: The TB's are NOT linked with a hose, but have the nipples capped. This bike has been worked on as evidenced by the "Made in the USA" fuel injection hose and adequete, but non-factory hose clamps.

My pleasure, and if you do purchase the VDST, I'd appreciate the sale; https://www.guzzitech.com/store/TR-VDSTS.html or contact me direct with CC or other.
Sounds like the injector servicing would be a wise investment, and the evap can hose isn't mandatory, though it has been said that leaving one in place between the two throttle bodies makes for a smoother idle. I do not run one on my older bikes, but the new ones I leave it in place for easy T/B balance. Do you have or need the nipples to thread in?

 

[john zibell]

As for VDSTS or any of the other code readers, the sensor must be in complete failure, either completely open, or shorted to ground to get an indicated failure. What you will usually see with a sensor problem is that the value sent is so far from what it should be that the ECU is given incorrect data which results in poor running. This is why Todd mentioned mechanical skills and a little logic to interpret what you are seeing as acceptably close enough, or so far out the sensor needs to be replaced.

 

[IBA 270]

Re: Last Update to Hard Starting...

Ok, catching everyone up on my challenges...and some learnings...

1) Guzzi's are pretty straight forward (yup, knocking on wood.. )

2) The Guzzi leaked gas like mad...until I rebuilt the fuel injectors..a good investment of about $65...

3) Guzzi's don't run well with one broken spark plug lead :? Fixed now.

4) .20/.20 makes for tappy valves!

5) I don't care if pods lose 10hp...they are EVIL sounding. :evil:

Bottom line; cleaned fuel injectors, new plugs and wires= a bike that starts right up with no drama, no throttle advance...and as I said, it's an evil sound'n MoFo!!!

BTW...any advice on a different valve setting, please let me know. I know it's a bit larger, but aside the slightly louder vavles, the idle is very smooth and the bike seems to run well. No test ride yet...

 

[john zibell]

Re: Last Update to Hard Starting...

BTW...any advice on a different valve setting, please let me know. I know it's a bit larger, but aside the slightly louder vavles, the idle is very smooth and the bike seems to run well. No test ride yet...

Yes,

Intake 0.004 inch (0.1mm) Exhaust 0.006 inch (0.15mm)