V65 Lario: First gear and no throttle, should I be stalling?

[marty90]

I recently bought a ‘87 V65 Lario. It had been sitting for some time, so I knew there would at least be a carb rebuild in its future - that’s all done now.

This is my first carbed bike, so forgive me if my questions here are misguided.

As soon as I shift into first and ease off the clutch (no throttle), I stall. (This is just with me on it - the wheel spins when it’s on the center stand, although there’s a drop in RPM.)

I have tried increasing the idle speed on the carbs, which increases the RPMs while neutral, but I still stall as soon as I ease off the clutch.

My question: is this normal for this kind of bike? I swear it wasn’t doing this when it first came back from the shop, but maybe my memory has failed me and I just need lots of practice with clutch and throttle control in the friction zone.

 

[Adamigo]

I would say clutch "has seen better days", and then that phase between "work" and "no work" is very sharp, more like on/off thing. Forgive me, but there's plenty of jokes regarding Americans being unable to drive manual gearbox cars, so to keep things clear, I will ask, OK, engine running - press the clutch lever - engage 1st gear - and I understand, engine still runs well at that moment? Then you slowly release the clutch with some revs on - or possibly it stalls just because you don't touch throttle at the same time? Try to be more precise, and we'll find the reason.

 

[john zibell]

Of course it stalls at idle when you let out the clutch. You have to give it some throttle to get moving.

 

[marty90]

I would say clutch "has seen better days", and then that phase between "work" and "no work" is very sharp, more like on/off thing. Forgive me, but there's plenty of jokes regarding Americans being unable to drive manual gearbox cars, so to keep things clear, I will ask, OK, engine running - press the clutch lever - engage 1st gear - and I understand, engine still runs well at that moment? Then you slowly release the clutch with some revs on - or possibly it stalls just because you don't touch throttle at the same time? Try to be more precise, and we'll find the reason.

No offense taken, that is a very fair question to ask! yes, that is the case.
-Engine on, in neutral
-Pull in clutch
-Engage first (I have to push myself forward a bit or it slide back into neutral)
-Slowly release the clutch, it moves forward a bit and engine stops

This is all after letting it run idle for about four minutes.

Giving it throttle up to 2000 or 2500 rpm gets me a bit further (it idles around 1).

 

[Adamigo]

OK, it seems then, that there's not enough juice in the engine to pull properly - I mean, not enough fuel. Few possible paths to follow, first, try when doing what you do to open choke a bit - this will increase fuel in the mixture and will give us a hint if lack of fuel can be a true reason. If so, try to screw out mixture screws, quarter turn each at a time, but not more than 3/4 in total. And report

 

[marty90]

Thanks! I have a couple questions just to make sure I’m adjusting the right things.

The choke is on the left side of my bike. In the first picture you can see it closed, and in the second you see it open. You can see my finger holding it up; after a few seconds, it automatically goes back down. I’m not sure if it’s meant to do this, and I’m a little of scared of holding it open for too long and flooding the carburetors . When I hold it open while the bike is running, it seems to rev slower, so I let go.



Finally, I want to confirm that I’m adjusting the right screws (the service manual is a little confusing):

The little screw on the left is fuel/air mixture, and the big one on the right is idle speed, correct?

Thank you again for your patience!

 

[john zibell]

Correct on screw function. Only screw in the big screw after you have to raise the slides or you will cut a groove in the slide. I see you have aftermarket air filters. That will require re-jetting from stock.

 

[marty90]

Thanks!

I tried turning the mixture screws left about a half turn. It seems to be helping me move forward with some throttle applied, but I still stall pretty quickly once I leave the friction zone. (I get further though.)

I’m wondering if my idle speed is wrong. The manual I have says that idling speed should be between 1000 to 1200 rpm, but when I set it there I stall even when I’m on the center stand in first gear. Does that mean I should continue giving it more fuel so it doesn’t do that, and go from there? Or should I increase my idle speed and then give it more fuel until it can carry me with no/little throttle? (I assume setting the idle speed too high may not be good for this motorcycle.)

Asked another way - assuming my idle speed is 1200-ish, what RPM should I be throttling up to before I ease off the clutch?

Thanks again for your patience here - as I mentioned earlier, this is my first time around carbs.

 

[kenrover]

Are your brakes binding? Just a thought.....

 

[scottmastrocinque]

so I knew there would at least be a carb rebuild in its future - that’s all done now.

This is my first carbed bike, so forgive me if my questions here are misguided.

Stop. Hold the phone.

WHO did the carb rebuild? You?

Your bike is not running correctly because your carb is not rebuilt correctly. I'd bet money on it.

Sometimes the most obvious answer, staring us right in the face, eludes us...

 

[tobinh]

Thanks!

I tried turning the mixture screws left about a half turn. It seems to be helping me move forward with some throttle applied, but I still stall pretty quickly once I leave the friction zone. (I get further though.)

I’m wondering if my idle speed is wrong. The manual I have says that idling speed should be between 1000 to 1200 rpm, but when I set it there I stall even when I’m on the center stand in first gear. Does that mean I should continue giving it more fuel so it doesn’t do that, and go from there? Or should I increase my idle speed and then give it more fuel until it can carry me with no/little throttle? (I assume setting the idle speed too high may not be good for this motorcycle.)

Asked another way - assuming my idle speed is 1200-ish, what RPM should I be throttling up to before I ease off the clutch?

Thanks again for your patience here - as I mentioned earlier, this is my first time around carbs.

ah... I think you're off into the weeds here. it doesn't make sense to tune your carb like this. just set your idle speed to 1200 rpm. it doesn't matter if it stalls in gear. the bike needs the throttle that it needs to move away.

it sounds to me like you just need to practice with your basic clutch operation, not play with your carburetor. don't worry about what rpm it needs to pull away, just practice.

 

[marty90]

Thank you everyone for your replies! Let me try and address each of them in order. (I apologies if this forum's tagging mechanism leads to a flood of notifications; if it does, I'll stop.)

@john zibell Thank you for clarifying which screw is which! I was a little nervous about that. And yes, the air filter is not stock and it was re-jetted.

@kenrover I might be misunderstanding the symptoms of brake binding, but I don't think so; when in neutral (and first with the clutch in), I'm able to push the bike forwards and backwards without any resistance. With brake binding, wouldn't I have trouble with that?

@scottmastrocinque That's a great point. I am not the one who did the carb rebuild; I brought it to a shop. What's odd to me is that I was definitely able to ride it after getting it back from the shop; I only started having trouble after it sat for a few days. (I might have just forgotten some technique, though, see below...)

@tobinh I suspect that you and @john zibell are right that I need to give it throttle and practice on it more. Do you have any tips for someone new to carbed bikes? I try to let it run idle to warm up for a couple minutes before I do anything. I only give it choke if it's having trouble starting. When you pull away, do you blip the throttle and then start easing off the clutch, or give it a consistent amount of throttle and ride around in the friction zone?

 

[john zibell]

Don't sit with the bike at idle. Best to warm up by riding easy for a bit. You have to roll on the throttle as you ease out the clutch. Much like driving a car with a standard transmission and even fuel injected bike. So many people have only driven automatics they have no concept of how to use a clutch system. From what you have written, I'm thinking this is your first motorcycle. Have you ever taken a Motorcycle Safety Foundation course?

 

[marty90]

Apologies for the slow reply.

I have, and I learned on a newer Honda Rebel 300 that moves forward without any throttle at all. I understand that that’s a very different bike from this, though.

(I know it’s apples and oranges, but I also learned to drive on a manual beetle that would also pull away in first with no gas. I’m not saying this makes me right about anything, just trying to point to the source of my confusion.)

 

[Raven]

I have never driven any vehicle with a manual transmission that would move away on idle other than a tractor. They all stall. You need to get the revs up a bit and slip the clutch. I too learned to drive standard on a beetle in the early 70's. I vividly remember stalling and bunny hopping from too much or too little revs and imprecise use of the clutch.If you can move away on idle, the idle is set way too high.

 

[marty90]

OH! Ok, that actually clears everything up for me here.

This is embarrassing but I’m going to write this down in case someone else goes around googling this question. (I hope I explain it right.)

Looking at what y’all are saying, and looking back at what I’ve been posting, I figured out where I got the idea that I should be moving in first with no throttle. All the bikes I’ve ridden before are smaller than this one (like the aforementioned Rebel 300). (And a mistuned Beetle, apparently.)

My Lario is… 650. (it’s in the name and everything!). So it goes faster. And you need throttle to go fast.

The smaller bikes I’m used to don’t have a lot of range in the friction zone; for low-speed maneuvering you wind up with your hand off the clutch pretty soon, but you’re still moving slowly enough that idle can power it. I got used to that.

Not so on a bigger bike! It goes plenty fast with just a bit of throttle and the clutch almost all the way in. By the time you’re going fast enough to want to get off the clutch, you’re going… fast enough to need a lot more throttle. Faster than “time to go forwards” speed.

I mentioned above that it had been working fine earlier - well, it still works fine! The most embarrassing part: I understood all this when I rode it when I got it back after the carb rebuild, but promptly forgot that it was a bigger bike after a rainy week. Then I kept trying to drive it like the little bike, and then got tunnel vision on the problem.

So today I drove it around with just a smidge of throttle (around 2000 rpm) and my finger barely relaxing off the clutch, and it goes faster than the Rebel with the clutch out. Because of course it does. Works fine.

Thanks everyone for your insight and for bearing with me here. I’m looking forward to practicing on this, and I hope my next post here will be about a problem with the bike, and not a problem with its rider

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Happy that you seem to have figured it out. Good luck!