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Valve noise

Crap this even has to be a topic!! :unsure:
noted above: my 2010 model failed under warranty, both sided got fixed. After working with Piaggio they extended me another 2 year or 8k mile warranty/whichever first, as it relates to the repair. Let's hope that does the trick!! I think they realize that they have an issue here!! the 2010 had not recalls!!
 
My entire point is that I'm still under warranty....My dealer's point, if I understand it correctly, is that we send the parts to Guzzi, and they will let us know if that is in fact the case....disconcerting, but, my technicians here in Nashville are top-notch, and trying to remain neutral about the issue, while going to bat for me...I think Guzzi will do the right thing in the end...
 
gdp said:
My entire point is that I'm still under warranty....
Click to expand...


GDP -- I was under warranty as well (about 3 months left), but fought for the extended warranty!
 
Is there a point when one can assume they're safe from the failure I wonder.

My 09 had the cam and lifter recall done before a mile had been done on it. I currently have 22,000 (35,000km) miles on it and so far it has been perfect.

Are there many that have failed with that kind of mileage, or are the failures generally limited to low mile bikes?
 
My 2009 had the cam/lifter recall done on it while it was still sitting on the showroom floor.

17,000 miles on it now and no problems yet.

Lannis
 
My theory and what the hell do I know, Is if the recall was done on a zero mile engine with the UPGRADED parts , There should not be a problem . What happened frequently and remember they got the 8V a couple of years before the US did, in Europe was the failed parts were replaced by the same ones in early 8V's before Guzzi realized there was a problem and this explained the repeat failures also If a motor was fitted even with the new parts after a failure and the engine ,oil cooler was not flushed and the oil pump inspected or replaced it was doomed to failure again some thing that has happened frequently.

I am relying on a lot of Pete Roper's investigations and knowledge gleaned on this forum which seems to have a lot of European members. Presently there is a Stelvio on the west coast that is awaiting word from Piaggio for a new motor claim under warranty. With out knowing the history ( it was a used bike ) it would be premature to speculate if it was the "CAM" issue.

MY 2C

In the mean time intend to ride my 2011 Griso SE without concern
 
Same here.

I'm taking the Stelvio up to Alaska this August and then back through Jasper and Banff, down through Montana, Wyoming, Utah, SD, MN, the UP etc. and home. My wife will be riding along on her 2011 Griso as well.
 
Lannis said:
My 2009 had the cam/lifter recall done on it while it was still sitting on the showroom floor.

17,000 miles on it now and no problems yet.

Lannis
Click to expand...

Same here. Recall done before I took delivery. I now have 25,000 kilometres on mine with no issues yet.

Bruce
 
pete roper said:
Why am I anticipating another story of woe and misery? I really hope not for your sake, but..... Well, good luck.

Pete
Click to expand...
...MEANING?....they 'fix' it...it breaks...they fix it...it breaks?....
 
Problem is that just replacing the bits that have gone udders skywards is only fixing part of the issue. The residue from the broken parts has to be removed completely and any parts likely to have been contaminated have to be inspected and cleaned or replaced. If you don't do that you might as well not bother. Sure you might get away with it. MIGHT! butits like playing Russian Roulette with four of the chambers loaded.

Pete
 
I understand..........Even though they are extending my warranty another 9 months, the truth is that the cam surface that "is almost completely gone", is in the innards of the block....what IS the cam coating?...Chrome?...To do it correctly, Guzzi ought to give me a new engine...after all: this machine was not cheap...GDP
 
It is hardened steel.
Generally, the engine will see filtered oil, so generally, the entire engine is fine. The main problem is the oil pump. It gets the pre filtered crap.
But even the filter can go into bypass mode and send the crap downstream.
 
Wayne Orwig said:
It is hardened steel.
Generally, the engine will see filtered oil, so generally, the entire engine is fine. The main problem is the oil pump. It gets the pre filtered crap.
But even the filter can go into bypass mode and send the crap downstream.
Click to expand...
...To clean the oil pump...take it off?...dismantle it?...OR...should I replace it?...
 
Wayne Orwig said:
It is hardened steel.
Generally, the engine will see filtered oil, so generally, the entire engine is fine. The main problem is the oil pump. It gets the pre filtered crap.
But even the filter can go into bypass mode and send the crap downstream.
Click to expand...


It would be great if some engineering wizard could come with a sump spacer adding another external filter to pre filter the pickup line oil before it gets sucked up into the pump. ALA Harpers outsider. :mrgreen:
 
gdp said:
Wayne Orwig said:
It is hardened steel.
Generally, the engine will see filtered oil, so generally, the entire engine is fine. The main problem is the oil pump. It gets the pre filtered crap.
But even the filter can go into bypass mode and send the crap downstream.
Click to expand...
...To clean the oil pump...take it off?...dismantle it?...OR...should I replace it?...
Click to expand...

Ideally if it happened to my motor, I would want a new pump the block and oil cooler flushed out before starting the motor with the new top end bits.
 
draidt said:
Wayne Orwig said:
It is hardened steel.
Generally, the engine will see filtered oil, so generally, the entire engine is fine. The main problem is the oil pump. It gets the pre filtered crap.
But even the filter can go into bypass mode and send the crap downstream.
Click to expand...


It would be great if some engineering wizard could come with a sump spacer adding another external filter to pre filter the pickup line oil before it gets sucked up into the pump. ALA Harpers outsider. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

What say you Pete ?
 
Unfortunately puting a microfine filter *before* the pump is impractical. Remember, there is no such thing as 'Suck'! All the pump does is create a low pressure area inside itself. The oil has to be pushed into the pump by the crankcase pressure, (Slightly above atmospheric.) acting on the surface of the oil in the sump. Any kind of impediment to flow is a bad thing as by restricting flow it will increase the risk of the pump simply cavitating and delivering nothing. Once the oil has passed through the pump is is positively pressurised and as long as supply to the pump is adequate oil pressure is only limited by the efficiency of the sealing of the pump and the number of 'Leak Points' downstream of it. Hence the need for a pressure relief valve. If pressure gets too high the internal friction of the oil may overcome the nip on the rod bearings and they can spin, On vehicles that use half moon mains they too can spin. It's been a long, long times since I've seen a spun bearing as machining and manufacturing tollerances are so much better nowadays but the risk is still there.

The problem we have with the 8V is twofold. Firstly there is the fact that the oil pumps recieve oil that has only been strained. Of the two pick-ups the one for the 'Lubrication' circuit that feeds the bearings has only a vairly coarse screen to keep out HUGE bits of crap. The Cooling pump pick up has a nasty, but slightly finer, sort of 'Sock' on the end of it! Neither of these is articularly brilliant for filtering crap out of the oil but they shouldn't need to be. In the normal course of event there shouldn't be ANYTHING that big floating about in the oil! Once something like the tappets break up though there are going to be lots of smallish, but not microfine, pieces of shite suspended in the oil. While these will be small enough to pass through the strainers they will also be quite large enough to score and damage the pump internals reducing its ability to seal and therefore also to pump!

Secondly there is the issue of filtering the oil after the pump. As Wayne says on the 'Lubrication' circuit to the bearings and I believe the under-piston sprays the oil passes through the big cartridge filter that lives in the 'Pit' in the sump. As long as you use an oil with a nice low cold viscosity it will hopefully not go into bypass mode when the oil is cold and all the nasties, large or small, that have got through the strainer and pump will get taken out. The cooling circuit though is a different matter. This is un-filtered and delivers oil to first the oil cooler, (Made of small diameter tubes with radiant fins around them. Very easy to block!) through banjo bolts, (Smallish holes, also quite easy to block.) and thence to the cooling galleries around the exhaust valves, (Also quite fine drillings, they have to be to keep the speed of the coolant high so it won't cook!). Compromise the pump or block the cooler, lines or galleries and the whole cooling system will go to hell in a handbasket real quick!

Exhaust valves are the most highly stressed part in an engine. Even in 'Normal'running the necks of the eahaust valves will be glowwing dull red. The ONLY way that valves can dump heat is through the seat when the valve is closed and through contact betwixt valve stem and guide. The 8V valves have tiny, thin stems. 4 or 5mm and the engines are designed to run lean and hot. Compromise the valve cooling and you're sitting on a ticking time bomb. Low flow caused by a damaged pump or a blocked line, cooler or gallery? Tick-Tock, Tick-Tock!

As with most things in an engine it is very important to look at the whole engine and its systems holistically. There is no point in trying to look at simply ONE aspect of a situation. The whole thing is far greater than the sum of its parts.

So to answer the original question? Ideally you would want a microfine pre-filter. Unfotunately in an application like a motorbike engine it simply isn't practical. To ge an ellement large enough not to impede flow to the pump would be too large, cumbersome and bulky. Also, as long as everything is working as it should it shouldn't be neccessary over the life of the motor. The problems only arise when something like a tappet shits itself but it is for exactly that reason that the repairs MUST be carried out correctly and thoroughly. Otherwise ypu might aswell simply not bother.....

Pete
 
How can you verify no blockage at all of the fine cooling galleries or other very narrow passages?
The oil cooler should be an easy task I suppose.
 
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