What constitutes a V7 fork?

[timothy st.john]

Hello everyone,

This question is for the experts, or people who have 'fork' experience on the V7. As I have none yet, I'm given to wonder which components in a V7 front fork assembly are actually 'component' to it. When we are talking about different forks on this bike, Marzocchi or Kaifa, what are we actually talking about? Tube assemblies?

Why did Guzzi actually change the forks? Usually its simple economics; even if an improvement was sought in pursuit of performance upgrade. That being the case, is the Kaifa fork actually an improvement over the Marzocchi or was it just a cheaper option for Guzzi (with or without a performance upgrade)?

When Guzzi sourced 'forks' from either Marzocchi (pre 2013) or Kaifa, were they built for Guzzi to specific performance standards (and/or external dimensions) by the manufacturers, or simply sourced from existing supply by those manufacturers as being suitable by Guzzi?

Do the Marzocchi tubes fit the same triple clamps used on the Kaifa tubes? If so, is one better than the other as a starting point? Maybe the Mupo spring kit seems to work better simply because its in the Marzocchi tube, and the Matris is only in the Kaifa. Is the Marzocchi tube a significantly better place to start?

That being the case, how much do tubes cost? I ask because I can find all kinds of people telling me how wonderful the Mupo/Marzocchi combination is, but no one seems as stoked about their Kaifa/Matris pairing. All they do is talk about future potential, and how nice it is to have preload adjustability in the mean time.

Or, is it just that the original Marzocchi setup was so bad, that the improvement made by adding the Mupo kit registers on the rider as knight and day difference, while the Kaifa is less bad, and so registers as being only marginally improved by addition of the Matris (yes, yes...which rumor has it, can be dialed in)?

Thank you in advance for your well considered response. Experts?

Timothy St. John

 

[jennygirl]

Subscribed! I have been wondering the same thing

 

[GTM®]

When we are talking about different forks on this bike, Marzocchi or Kaifa, what are we actually talking about? Tube assemblies?

The entire assemblies.

Why did Guzzi actually change the forks? Usually its simple economics; even if an improvement was sought in pursuit of performance upgrade. That being the case, is the Kaifa fork actually an improvement over the Marzocchi or was it just a cheaper option for Guzzi (with or without a performance upgrade)?

Always economic reasons. The are very similar internally; Damper Rods, Springs & Spacers. You can Google search the basics of damper rod forks.

When Guzzi sourced 'forks' from either Marzocchi (pre 2013) or Kaifa, were they built for Guzzi to specific performance standards (and/or external dimensions) by the manufacturers, or simply sourced from existing supply by those manufacturers as being suitable by Guzzi?

Typically Moto manufacturers approach suspension companies with parameters and cost focus. In the case of Guzzi/Marzocchi, it's been an Italian wedding so to speak. When Piaggio got involved, outsourcing began. Kaifa is Taiwanese, and now India is getting involved, so who knows where that goes.

Do the Marzocchi tubes fit the same triple clamps used on the Kaifa tubes? If so, is one better than the other as a starting point? Maybe the Mupo spring kit seems to work better simply because its in the Marzocchi tube, and the Matris is only in the Kaifa. Is the Marzocchi tube a significantly better place to start?

Yes they fit on each. No. It is simply that Mupo engineered a kit for the Marzocchi... and Matris the latter. I sent both companies internal specs on both (it's almost like they spoke to each other, perhaps they did), and decided to only offer one each. The Mupo kit is a "cartridge emulator" with a shim stack, and the Matris is a very simple flow valve (plastic spacer with a hole in it). The flow valve works wonderfully in the Breva/Norge line. My '13 V7R had Marzocchi, so I haven't personally been able to spend any real time with the Matris kit on the Kaifa... but I will when the V7 II lands. The upside for Matris is that they give you a beautiful spring preload fork cap. Paramount to the ease of setting sag.

That being the case, how much do tubes cost? I ask because I can find all kinds of people telling me how wonderful the Mupo/Marzocchi combination is, but no one seems as stoked about their Kaifa/Matris pairing. All they do is talk about future potential, and how nice it is to have preload adjustability in the mean time.

The complete fork assembly by Marzocchi is ~$725 per side, vs. Kafia's ~$500/side (there's your economics lesson). The differences are mostly internal, though I'd wager the internals aren't an easy swap... I know for sure that fork caps are different.

Or, is it just that the original Marzocchi setup was so bad, that the improvement made by adding the Mupo kit registers on the rider as knight and day difference, while the Kaifa is less bad, and so registers as being only marginally improved by addition of the Matris (yes, yes...which rumor has it, can be dialed in)?

No, see two responses above. In short, if you are trying to find out if the fork tubes (not relevant) and internals will easily swap between the two, the answer is no.

 

[mwrenn]

PM sent Timothy.

 

[timothy st.john]

Thanks Todd!

That's the kind of thoroughness we love. And yes, that is what I was thinking. For being better advised now, we are all one step closer to whatever inevitable purchases are required of us; to everybody's benefit.

Its amazing how little things that shouldn't make a difference, do however make a profound difference none the less. Thats the alchemy of mechanical synergy. I design tube electronics and can change the aural soundscape of a component by means that shouldn't effect anything.

Todd, is it possible that the Matris forks will reveal themselves in a more flattering light, if the shocks in back of the bike are elevated by upgrade, such that they achieve a greater balance or synergy with the new sophistication of the front end?

Shame about the cost of trading over though; the forum responses for the Mupo/Marzocchi are just that much stronger than the present postings for the Matris. I'm hoping its just a question of time for the Matris kit to receive its public due.

That being the case, COME ON those of you with the Matris kit...talk it up! We're all relying on your experience and input. A few simple observations might excite expert epiphany. It you're disappointed, but hopeful, say so. If your impressed but not blown away, let us know.

Timothy St. John

P.S. I can't believe I used an emoticon. There goes my Pulitzer.

 

[Gruzzer]

I am thrilled with my Matris Fork Kit and Rear Suspension. The below review is about 8 months old and still accurate;

I do a good mix of freeway, city and canyon driving and the transformation is beyond comparison to the stock setup. I can even go as far to say – this is the best suspension setup I have ever ridden (granted I have limited riding experience but true nonetheless).

Rebound, Compression, overall feel of the bike, corning – all make me smile. I used to curse if hit a pothole / bump as it would inevitably travel up and jolt me but now the suspension takes it all in stride.

The look of the shocks are also superb and adjusting the pre-load for a 2 up is a quick allen wrench away. If you are thinking of upgrading, this is the way to go.

 

[timothy st.john]

Hello,
Thanks for the thumbs up! I had read this and lost track of it. Much appreciated. Any updates? Let us know as they come to mind.
Timothy St. John

 

[elkgrichard]

My 13 stone suspension works OK for me. I'm about 185 lbs. Can't say I would really need to change anything.

I've got 10,000 miles on the bike and it feels to me like the front and back suspension work better with each other then they did in the very beginning. I no longer get that rocking horse effect. The rear shocks I did adjust and found it was not so much that they were stiff but rather somewhat soft. Pulled the pre load up a couple turns and that corrected the rocking horse thing for me. It's firm but will take up the bumps, although there is some feed back it's a feed back that is taken up somewhat. I've found the suspension somewhat similar to other bikes I've owned. I'm fortunate that my weight is probably the target weight for stock suspension when these things are engineered. I would like to add some pre-load adjusters to the front down the road when I can find something priced within reason. For example I found some pre-load adjusters for my Bonneville on line for 35 bucks for the set that are original fit for 40mm Suzuki front forks.

I'm going to do a little research and find a cross over for this V7 from the guy who sells these things for 35 bucks a set. The spacers can be made cheap with PCV pipe.

 

[tonUPRacer]

Timothy, I'll be happy to add my comments once I get my kit installed and have some miles in. Have you even ridden your bike yet? Depending on your weight and riding style you might find the stock suspension perfectly fine. Some do, some don't. Those of us who don't are probably more vocal than riders that are happy with the OEM suspension. My new weight specific shocks and springs should arrive today. Whoo Hoo!

 

[abbienormal]

Almost always when I find somebody who is perfectly happy with the stock suspension they have never upgraded any of their bikes or don"t ride it much. My Suzuki V-Strom suspension is acceptable for my usage and I probably won't upgrade it due to money-vs-mileage. If Iride it more it will be upgraded. My BMW R12GS had one of the worst rear shocks on it I have ever had on a stock bike, except maybe 1970's Japanese machinery. I was fine with it as that bike and I never gelled and I figured it was not going to be around long. Most of my trips are on my California 1400 Tour. Of course that now has upgraded suspension and while I have only ridden it 20 miles with the new setup I can feel the difference. No more bouncing and wallow. I waited a year to see if I thought I was keeping the bike long enough to justify the cost.
I think I'd be crazy to add a V7 to my stable but I want one so it may happen. I can almost guarantee you the suspension will be one of the first upgrades.
My brother told me I was crazy for telling him to upgrade the suspension on his FJR. After over 30,000 miles he felt it was getting soft. Yes he spent over $2,500 (Racetech/Penske) because he paid somebody to do all the work but now he is kicking himself for not doing it a long time ago.
A saltine cracker is just fine till you have a Ritz. So if you are happy with stock do not ride your friend's bike with better suspension.

 

[GTM®]

So if you are happy with stock do not ride your friend's bike with better suspension.

Agreed. I've ridden and raced on some of the best equipment on the market, so I'm pretty well tuned to how well-sorted suspension works, and my expectations on all bikes these days. All that is worthy of note is that most *all* suspension parts are of budget targeted selection for most every manufacturer, even on those who offer upgraded models with "top shelf" offerings. It's not until you ride on something built for you, that you can truly understand. Worthy of note though... getting a twin shock and damper rod fork to work like a rising rate mono shock, and a USD cartridge fork is impossible, no matter how much money you spend on it.