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Recent Update Nov2012: 74 850T
- Thread starter khudson24
- Start date
geodoc
Cruisin' Guzzisti
- Joined
- Oct 27, 2008
- Messages
- 205
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Here's a possibility. I had an 850T with starting and other odd electrical problems. It turned out that with its original key switch, about 1.5 volts (!) was being dropped across its contacts after years of use. It's also the sort of thing where across the resistance, it would probably heat up and develop even more with time / increased load.
Anyway, I kept the switch, but used it to energize a relay for the load which normally is carried by the switch (the whole electrical load BTW).
Problems solved.
http://www.guzzipower.com/Dockray_key.html
Here's a possibility. I had an 850T with starting and other odd electrical problems. It turned out that with its original key switch, about 1.5 volts (!) was being dropped across its contacts after years of use. It's also the sort of thing where across the resistance, it would probably heat up and develop even more with time / increased load.
Anyway, I kept the switch, but used it to energize a relay for the load which normally is carried by the switch (the whole electrical load BTW).
Problems solved.
http://www.guzzipower.com/Dockray_key.html
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
That's interesting George. I kept the schematic in case I need to do this as well. The ignition switch on the bike is the aftermarket from MG cycle that the PO installed on it. The coils were also from MG Cycle - the ones designated for the older tonti models. They have the dyna coils John was referring to so I am going to give them a call later today. Thanks everyone!
That's interesting George. I kept the schematic in case I need to do this as well. The ignition switch on the bike is the aftermarket from MG cycle that the PO installed on it. The coils were also from MG Cycle - the ones designated for the older tonti models. They have the dyna coils John was referring to so I am going to give them a call later today. Thanks everyone!
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Hey guys - well ordered the dyna coils as John suggested. Picked up some aluminum stock to fabricate brackets and serve as a good heat sink.
BTW - check out my udpated pic of my 850T to the right - this is after the rebuild/mod - I kept the same color scheme, but different handlebars, bar end TS, headlight, brake light, chromed covers, mistral pipes etc...
Once I get the coils in order - zoom! B)
Hey guys - well ordered the dyna coils as John suggested. Picked up some aluminum stock to fabricate brackets and serve as a good heat sink.
BTW - check out my udpated pic of my 850T to the right - this is after the rebuild/mod - I kept the same color scheme, but different handlebars, bar end TS, headlight, brake light, chromed covers, mistral pipes etc...
Once I get the coils in order - zoom! B)
Trout
GT Reference
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Just a suggestion but before you hook up new coils you really ought to give the electrical system a good check. If the new MG coils burnt up that quickly I would say something is wrong especialy if both coils fried.
One thing I can think of is the possibility the coils were wired wrong in relation to the feed side and the distributor side of the coils.
Most coils are marked POS + or Neg -, sometimes they are marked P (power) & D (Dist). If I remember power is fed to the pos side of the top coil and a jumper wire goes to the pos side of the bottom coil to feed it.
The Neg (-) Dist side of each coil goes to the individual points / condensor.
I'm not sure what would happen if the coils were wired backwards or if the pos on one coil fed the neg on the other.
Possible the jumper wire is connected to the wrong side (neg (-) dist) of the second coil?
Or that one of the points wires are connected to the feed side?
It almost sounds like you have a short after the coils or at least something that is drawing way too much current. Check the wires from the coils to the distributor and really look close to where the wires go under the cap & into the points. From the factory there are small rubber grommets to keep moisture out and there is also metal tabs on the wires.
Is it possible the metal has worn a spot through the insulation and the wire is grounding?
I have seen the condensor wire where it attaches to the points rotate when the screw is tightened and the metal terminal slightly touches the mounting plate causing a short.
Just suggestions.
Just a suggestion but before you hook up new coils you really ought to give the electrical system a good check. If the new MG coils burnt up that quickly I would say something is wrong especialy if both coils fried.
One thing I can think of is the possibility the coils were wired wrong in relation to the feed side and the distributor side of the coils.
Most coils are marked POS + or Neg -, sometimes they are marked P (power) & D (Dist). If I remember power is fed to the pos side of the top coil and a jumper wire goes to the pos side of the bottom coil to feed it.
The Neg (-) Dist side of each coil goes to the individual points / condensor.
I'm not sure what would happen if the coils were wired backwards or if the pos on one coil fed the neg on the other.
Possible the jumper wire is connected to the wrong side (neg (-) dist) of the second coil?
Or that one of the points wires are connected to the feed side?
It almost sounds like you have a short after the coils or at least something that is drawing way too much current. Check the wires from the coils to the distributor and really look close to where the wires go under the cap & into the points. From the factory there are small rubber grommets to keep moisture out and there is also metal tabs on the wires.
Is it possible the metal has worn a spot through the insulation and the wire is grounding?
I have seen the condensor wire where it attaches to the points rotate when the screw is tightened and the metal terminal slightly touches the mounting plate causing a short.
Just suggestions.
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Trout - good suggestion. Otherwise it will happen again. I may have it wired incorrectly, which isn't a stretch, knowing me. When I get the new coils, I will pull out my Dyna III instructions and make sure. It is quite possible I reversed the connections as the coils I had did not seem clearly marked or the jumper wire is incorrect.
Trout - good suggestion. Otherwise it will happen again. I may have it wired incorrectly, which isn't a stretch, knowing me. When I get the new coils, I will pull out my Dyna III instructions and make sure. It is quite possible I reversed the connections as the coils I had did not seem clearly marked or the jumper wire is incorrect.
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
If you hook up the coils backwards the engine will run fine but you will find that the spark plugs erode at the spark gap at a much greater rate - like 10K. This is based on the few times I've done it myself or worked on vehicles that were hooked up backwards. I guess this has to do with the movement of electrons or something...
If you hook up the coils backwards the engine will run fine but you will find that the spark plugs erode at the spark gap at a much greater rate - like 10K. This is based on the few times I've done it myself or worked on vehicles that were hooked up backwards. I guess this has to do with the movement of electrons or something...
Mi_ka
High Miler
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Has to do with ions attacking the metals.
Must be the same reason the plain old telephone network functions at minus 48 volts dc towards the earth voltage - to have electrons go towards the earth instead of towards the conductors attacking the metal and provoking ion erosion on the long run.
Has to do with ions attacking the metals.
Must be the same reason the plain old telephone network functions at minus 48 volts dc towards the earth voltage - to have electrons go towards the earth instead of towards the conductors attacking the metal and provoking ion erosion on the long run.
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Just to update, the wire from the left spark plug wire into the coil was not in contact with the metal bit that crimps on. The right side was loose. I guess I did a poor job. I am going out to buy a proper crimping tool as well as lengthing the bare wire so it keeps in touch with the metal bit more easily. Could this have been the culprit that ruined the coils?
Just to update, the wire from the left spark plug wire into the coil was not in contact with the metal bit that crimps on. The right side was loose. I guess I did a poor job. I am going out to buy a proper crimping tool as well as lengthing the bare wire so it keeps in touch with the metal bit more easily. Could this have been the culprit that ruined the coils?
Trout
GT Reference
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
NO. It may have caused a running problem but would not have harmed the coils.
If the coils were / are getting smoking hot with just the key on then they are being shorted to ground. Some normal heat can be expected if the points for that coil are closed.
If you are interested how the points, condensor, coils work:
The feed wire from the ignition switch attaches to the POS side of the coil.
The NEG side of the coil attaches to the points & condensor.
When the points are CLOSED the coil saturates the primary windings in the coil building energy.
When the points OPEN the energy build up in the primary windings saturates the secondary windings producing a high voltage spark.
So think like this:
If you put power to the POS side but have nothing hooked to the NEG side the coil will never get hot.
If you run a wire from the NEG side and touch it to ground the coil will get hot and burn up because it is not designed to carry that type of load.
The points do ground the coil in conjunction with the condensor in a controlled "short". Just enough to produce the hi voltage needed to fire the plugs.
So if your coils are burning up there has to be a short in the wiring from the coils that run to & into the distributor.
Before installing the new coils check that little bit of wiring or like I said earlier make sure the feed wire or the condensor wire did not rotate when tightened and is now touching ground.
NO. It may have caused a running problem but would not have harmed the coils.
If the coils were / are getting smoking hot with just the key on then they are being shorted to ground. Some normal heat can be expected if the points for that coil are closed.
If you are interested how the points, condensor, coils work:
The feed wire from the ignition switch attaches to the POS side of the coil.
The NEG side of the coil attaches to the points & condensor.
When the points are CLOSED the coil saturates the primary windings in the coil building energy.
When the points OPEN the energy build up in the primary windings saturates the secondary windings producing a high voltage spark.
So think like this:
If you put power to the POS side but have nothing hooked to the NEG side the coil will never get hot.
If you run a wire from the NEG side and touch it to ground the coil will get hot and burn up because it is not designed to carry that type of load.
The points do ground the coil in conjunction with the condensor in a controlled "short". Just enough to produce the hi voltage needed to fire the plugs.
So if your coils are burning up there has to be a short in the wiring from the coils that run to & into the distributor.
Before installing the new coils check that little bit of wiring or like I said earlier make sure the feed wire or the condensor wire did not rotate when tightened and is now touching ground.
Mc Tool
Cruisin' Guzzisti
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
When I got my ( not going )"T" it was fitted with a dyna111 ignition . When I got it going the 1st thing ( well nearly ) was that both the dyna module and the ( stock 3.5 ohm primary ) coils got smokin hot and then it dropped one cylinder , and by quickly switching wires ( before it cooled ) I was able to prove the fault was in the module .... So after checking the Dyna website ,which told me the dyna111 ignition module would run ok with standard ( 3.5 ohm ) coils I bought a new dyna ignition system ( and a bastardly little bit of paper in the box stated that it needed 5ohm primary coils ..... not what the blurb on the 'net said ) , but again both the coils and the module got hot , and reasoning that this must have something to do with the dwell timing ( as the input voltage was the same , as was the impedance ) I fitted a couple of 1.6 ohm ballast resistors (to get me up to 5 ohms ) and end of problem . Being a fussy bastard is expencive .... I bought the dyna 5 ohm coils. I dunno how long the previous owner ran the 3.5 ohm coils but I do know that he spent nearly $4k doing the motor up and when it still wouldn't go ( apparently he got about 100yards from home before it stopped) he packed a shitty and chucked it a shed for 14 years before it found its way to me . The other thing that threw me was that the carbs had 2 different weight floats in them , which I didnt notice for way to long , and one pot was over rich to the point that it fouled the plug . I was supprized at how much difference the float height made to the fuel mix and how fast it would perminantly foul the plug
When I got my ( not going )"T" it was fitted with a dyna111 ignition . When I got it going the 1st thing ( well nearly ) was that both the dyna module and the ( stock 3.5 ohm primary ) coils got smokin hot and then it dropped one cylinder , and by quickly switching wires ( before it cooled ) I was able to prove the fault was in the module .... So after checking the Dyna website ,which told me the dyna111 ignition module would run ok with standard ( 3.5 ohm ) coils I bought a new dyna ignition system ( and a bastardly little bit of paper in the box stated that it needed 5ohm primary coils ..... not what the blurb on the 'net said ) , but again both the coils and the module got hot , and reasoning that this must have something to do with the dwell timing ( as the input voltage was the same , as was the impedance ) I fitted a couple of 1.6 ohm ballast resistors (to get me up to 5 ohms ) and end of problem . Being a fussy bastard is expencive .... I bought the dyna 5 ohm coils. I dunno how long the previous owner ran the 3.5 ohm coils but I do know that he spent nearly $4k doing the motor up and when it still wouldn't go ( apparently he got about 100yards from home before it stopped) he packed a shitty and chucked it a shed for 14 years before it found its way to me . The other thing that threw me was that the carbs had 2 different weight floats in them , which I didnt notice for way to long , and one pot was over rich to the point that it fouled the plug . I was supprized at how much difference the float height made to the fuel mix and how fast it would perminantly foul the plug
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
That's some good feedback. Appreciate relating your ignition experience. Well, I put in the dyna 5 ohm coils, checked wires to distributor, fresh plugs, double checked wiring to coil, still does not start. Pulled plug with cable, grounded on engine, no spark.
when the engine was starting, and then suddenly died, and wouldn't start again, the coils were hot, leaking, ruined. Could the Dyna III be fried? I don't know what else to do besides replace the dyna unit. The post above has me wondering. Help please!
That's some good feedback. Appreciate relating your ignition experience. Well, I put in the dyna 5 ohm coils, checked wires to distributor, fresh plugs, double checked wiring to coil, still does not start. Pulled plug with cable, grounded on engine, no spark.
when the engine was starting, and then suddenly died, and wouldn't start again, the coils were hot, leaking, ruined. Could the Dyna III be fried? I don't know what else to do besides replace the dyna unit. The post above has me wondering. Help please!
Mc Tool
Cruisin' Guzzisti
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Yeah , I was thinkin after I posted that above , I believe my original module was failing when hot and then completely , but in my case only one pot .When it failed it was perminantly powering the coil . Im sure ( as I can be with out actually testing ) that the old points system didnt power the coils for as long as the dyna (dwell angle) and with the same current flowing for longer I spose it stands to reason that things will get hotter and eventually crap out . I think that your module is probly custard but I dont know of a way to test them .
Yeah , I was thinkin after I posted that above , I believe my original module was failing when hot and then completely , but in my case only one pot .When it failed it was perminantly powering the coil . Im sure ( as I can be with out actually testing ) that the old points system didnt power the coils for as long as the dyna (dwell angle) and with the same current flowing for longer I spose it stands to reason that things will get hotter and eventually crap out . I think that your module is probly custard but I dont know of a way to test them .
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
Just fyi
Most of your modern-day ignitions are CD (capacitive discharge). This means that the primary voltage (12 V) is transformed to around 300 V and momentarily stored in a capacitor until discharged into the coil. This produces a sufficient spark and has eliminated a lot of ignition problems.
All of this is done in the control module. The coils for this type of system usually have very low ohm values. If you try to run them without the CD, on a 12 V system they simply won't work.
There are aftermarket CD ignitions systems available. I tried one once on an Oldsmobile and it was just too much spark. It would produce a spark that was like lightning about three or 4 inches long and it would simply leak through all of the spark plug wires. It just wasn't applicable to street driving but probably would've served pretty well on a drag racer.
In the old system (points and even pointless) the coil typically is designed to run on about 10 V not 12. The reason for this is that at start up the coil receives the full 12 V and this provides an additional boost to the spark instead of the normal operating 10 V. To do this the ignition key does a momentary bypass of the ballast resistor. The ballast resistor is used to drop the voltage from 12 to 10 for normal operation of the coil. If you run the coil without the ballast resistor more than likely it will overheat and cook itself. So it depends on the type of coil and how it's designed. Sometimes instead of the ballast resistor a resistor wire is used but they both accomplish the same thing that is to drop the primary voltage from 12 to about 10.
Modern CD ignitions do not require this gimmick for start up since they produce sufficient spark for starting.
Also at low rpm there is more time for the coils to saturate and this will draw the most current. At higher RPMs there is less time for the coils to saturate and current draw is less. So you are most likely to burn your coils at idle or low rpm if the coils do not match your ignition system. Likewise at higher rpm if you're electrical system is marginalized (poor charging/bad battery etc) you may not reach top speed because the coils have less time to saturate and the resultant spark is too weak or nonexistent.
Just fyi
Most of your modern-day ignitions are CD (capacitive discharge). This means that the primary voltage (12 V) is transformed to around 300 V and momentarily stored in a capacitor until discharged into the coil. This produces a sufficient spark and has eliminated a lot of ignition problems.
All of this is done in the control module. The coils for this type of system usually have very low ohm values. If you try to run them without the CD, on a 12 V system they simply won't work.
There are aftermarket CD ignitions systems available. I tried one once on an Oldsmobile and it was just too much spark. It would produce a spark that was like lightning about three or 4 inches long and it would simply leak through all of the spark plug wires. It just wasn't applicable to street driving but probably would've served pretty well on a drag racer.
In the old system (points and even pointless) the coil typically is designed to run on about 10 V not 12. The reason for this is that at start up the coil receives the full 12 V and this provides an additional boost to the spark instead of the normal operating 10 V. To do this the ignition key does a momentary bypass of the ballast resistor. The ballast resistor is used to drop the voltage from 12 to 10 for normal operation of the coil. If you run the coil without the ballast resistor more than likely it will overheat and cook itself. So it depends on the type of coil and how it's designed. Sometimes instead of the ballast resistor a resistor wire is used but they both accomplish the same thing that is to drop the primary voltage from 12 to about 10.
Modern CD ignitions do not require this gimmick for start up since they produce sufficient spark for starting.
Also at low rpm there is more time for the coils to saturate and this will draw the most current. At higher RPMs there is less time for the coils to saturate and current draw is less. So you are most likely to burn your coils at idle or low rpm if the coils do not match your ignition system. Likewise at higher rpm if you're electrical system is marginalized (poor charging/bad battery etc) you may not reach top speed because the coils have less time to saturate and the resultant spark is too weak or nonexistent.
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
MC Tool & tewrecks -
helpful. I think I will get a new unit. I was told by someone who knows guzzis pretty well, that I don't need a ballast resistor, But I clearly see the points made about this. If a buy a new dyna unit, can you guys give me insight on where to buy and how to how to install with the dyna unit and coils? I know it may sound silly to you, but I have no clue to this.
Thanks,
MC Tool & tewrecks -
helpful. I think I will get a new unit. I was told by someone who knows guzzis pretty well, that I don't need a ballast resistor, But I clearly see the points made about this. If a buy a new dyna unit, can you guys give me insight on where to buy and how to how to install with the dyna unit and coils? I know it may sound silly to you, but I have no clue to this.
Thanks,
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
The installation instructions with the Dyna unit are pretty good. The key is to take your time in positioning the rotor correctly. Then the timing by moving the left and right pickups is pretty easy. As for where to buy, I suggest supporting a Guzzi dealer that carries the unit.
khudson24 said:
The installation instructions with the Dyna unit are pretty good. The key is to take your time in positioning the rotor correctly. Then the timing by moving the left and right pickups is pretty easy. As for where to buy, I suggest supporting a Guzzi dealer that carries the unit.
khudson24
Tuned and Synch'ed
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2011
- Messages
- 28
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
I agree. I will probably buy from Harpers or MG Cycle, Does the resistor come with the Dyna unit? IF not where do I get the resistor at? Or is the answer still at a guzzi supplier? The one that got cooked was on the bike when I bought it, Also, I installed it in the battery area behind the side panel and grounded it into a gearbox bolt. IS this a good location or does it need to breathe more?
I agree. I will probably buy from Harpers or MG Cycle, Does the resistor come with the Dyna unit? IF not where do I get the resistor at? Or is the answer still at a guzzi supplier? The one that got cooked was on the bike when I bought it, Also, I installed it in the battery area behind the side panel and grounded it into a gearbox bolt. IS this a good location or does it need to breathe more?
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
With the Dyna unit and coils you do not need an in line resistor to the coils. I like to mount the Dyna control unit to the frame tube behind the left cylinder (the area that forms a triangle) if there is a stock air box. If running individual pod filters, then the frame down tube is a good location.
khudson24 said:
With the Dyna unit and coils you do not need an in line resistor to the coils. I like to mount the Dyna control unit to the frame tube behind the left cylinder (the area that forms a triangle) if there is a stock air box. If running individual pod filters, then the frame down tube is a good location.
Re: UPDATE: 74 850T Running Issue
I'd like to help but since I run Chrysler pointless ignition I couldn't comment on the Dyna system. It looks to me like it's a Hall effect with separate left and right systems in one control box. The coils you use with the system should not exceed the maximum current handling capacity of the control box. I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere but it would probably be a safe assumption to stick with recommended coils.
The Chrysler system is very forgiving and you could run just about any size coil with or without a ballast resistor. I've run the large Malory and Accel coils (autos) which both require a ballast resistor problem free. On the V7 sport I'm running Accel "performance" coils (http://www.amazon.com/ACCEL-8140-Perfor ... ition+coil) which do not need a ballast resistor.
Without a ballast resistor, however, there is too much spark and it draws too much current, so I had to find the right resistor value to still produce a manageable spark and reduce current draw to allow a positive alternator charge at low rpm.
The 5 ohm coils may have worked just as well?
I’m sure those familiar with dyna will help if needed.
I'd like to help but since I run Chrysler pointless ignition I couldn't comment on the Dyna system. It looks to me like it's a Hall effect with separate left and right systems in one control box. The coils you use with the system should not exceed the maximum current handling capacity of the control box. I'm not sure if it's stated anywhere but it would probably be a safe assumption to stick with recommended coils.
The Chrysler system is very forgiving and you could run just about any size coil with or without a ballast resistor. I've run the large Malory and Accel coils (autos) which both require a ballast resistor problem free. On the V7 sport I'm running Accel "performance" coils (http://www.amazon.com/ACCEL-8140-Perfor ... ition+coil) which do not need a ballast resistor.
Without a ballast resistor, however, there is too much spark and it draws too much current, so I had to find the right resistor value to still produce a manageable spark and reduce current draw to allow a positive alternator charge at low rpm.
The 5 ohm coils may have worked just as well?
I’m sure those familiar with dyna will help if needed.