2001 MG California Special

[scottmastrocinque]

Scott, sometimes there are valid reasons to go LED. Here is an example from my experience where the Guzzi light was useless. https://www.guzzitech.com/forums/threads/headlight-conversion-for-the-1100-breva.18970/

I AM NOT SAYING THAT LED'S ARE BAD OR UNWARRANTED OR NOT BETTER IN MANY WAYS!

I am saying that the current crop of cheap products from China, coupled with the unreasonable belief that it is nothing more than Plug and Play, is a fallacy, a myth, and absolutely dead wrong!

The headlight you installed there, is DESIGNED around the LED. The reflector and lens are DESIGNED to produce the desired effect. I'm also sure that there was a terminating resister DESIGNED into the wiring, to keep the system compatible with earlier design specification.

Turn signal design is substantially different from headlights. The turn signals are designed to notify the pilot when they are blown out, by the aforementioned difference in flashing rates. (It's the same on all modern cars for the last 40 or so years too). I didn't design it guys, I just know how it works. and why it is behaving erratically now.

The OP was bemoaning the fact that after just sticking in these Plug and Play garbage, why his lights were acting like 4 way flashers. I told him why and Charlie wants to argue, and now you.

I'm not arguing. I'm stating a fact as to why he is experiencing HYPERFLASHING.

If he just puts it back to the way it was designed, it will work perfect. It's that simple.

Otherwise, I don't care. If somebody is going to self-sabotage the inherent design specifications of their motorcycle, then so be it. You get what you get and that is usually, it doesn't work right.

I didn't write the "message" here folks. I just delivered it accurately.

Stop shooting the messenger please.

This is a function of improper resistance values being "seen" by the controller in the dash and that is what is causing the issue in the first place.

Lastly, as I said, light travels in a straight line and only in a straight line. Incandescent filaments generate light in a 360 degree pattern emanating from the glowing filament. Hence, lenses and concentrators to capture and redirect the light. LED's generate light in ONE DIRECTION only. Straight out from the emitter. This is why they do not work with the aforementioned lenses, and concentrators like one would expect. Systems that are designed for LED's from the get go, have these engineering enhancements already incorporated into the design.

The true benefits of LED lights, require lenses, and reflectors / concentrators that can maximize the light direction and output of LED's. Then they benefits are real and demonstrable. All this "quick switch" Chinese made LED stuff, is pure snake oil hype and causes more problems than it solves.

 

[john zibell]

Scott, not arguing with you, simply stated that there are some cases (and illustrated one) where an improvement can actually be made using LED.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Scott, not arguing with you, simply stated that there are some cases (and illustrated one) where an improvement can actually be made using LED.

Yes, but again, I never said that benefits or improvements could not be had nor that LED's did not have their place and benefits. I was simply responding to the situation with the OP.

 

[Dimi Pana]

Apparently Scott you are very passionate about this

You can disagree all you want but you are wrong.

There is circuitry inside of all of the Moto Guzzi’s from about 1990 onward, that “reads” the resistance in the electrical line. When a bulb burns out, this sudden change in line resistance is detected and the wiring is designed to have “hyper flashing” to alert the pilot. All modern motorcycles by all makers, do this.

As I said, this is by intentional design.

It is intended to instruct the dashboard to flash the turn signal, at a significantly different rate than normal, in order to alert the rider to the fact that a bulb has burned out. (Hyperflashing)

Furthermore, as I stated, the lenses and regulators/concentrators, are designed for the path of travel of the incandescent and halogen bulb design. LED’s by their very nature, cast light in a straight line from the emission point. They cannot function properly with any of these lenses.

Every single light and signal on a motorcycle is chosen for a reason. The system is designed intentionally for a reason.

The models you list are ancient history and have no special designs in their wiring. They are essentially “stupid” electrics. Modern bikes are not.

The internet has numerous very reputable sites which will confirm exactly what I have written here in my previous post. Search “hyper flashing”.

Given that I work with and see this issue virtually almost every week, on modern motorcycles of literally every marque you can think of, I am intimately familiar with it and I am 100% sure of what I am saying here.

Thinking that LED’s will be better than specified incandescent or halogen bulbs, in a system not designed for LED, is complete myth and anecdotal in nature. The actual science and measured light, prove otherwise.

The true benefits of LED lights, require lenses, and reflectors / concentrators that can maximize the light direction and output of LED's. Then they benefits are real and demonstrable. All this "quick switch" Chinese made LED stuff, is pure snake oil hype and causes more problems than it solves.

I will post a reply later this weekend addressing the points I agree with you but also where I do not. For the most part you are -in principle- correct, but you are also being very judgmental (to the point of being rude) and without realizing that some (not all, just some) of your claims are not valid. 'till later then, most likely Sunday, look for my reply. But just for the sake of the conversation, to whom are you replying specifically with your comment above (Mon at 11:06 AM) ?!

Cheers!

 

[Dimi Pana]

The electronic ones are prone to failure. The manual one is not. You just open it and leave it open. Only close it when removing the tank.

John, I just saw this old comment of yours, I was reading the ...passionate anti-LED posts by Scott and realized you had replied to my electronic/manual petcock question. Well, to cut to the chase MG Cycle still offers this manual petcock but here's my issue:

The original electronic one on my bike has an outlet angled 45 degrees down. The one at MC Cycle has an outlet at 90 degrees. The existing fuel tube coming from the filter is so thick and reinforced with wire mesh that it will not bend to fit the 90 degree outlet. It will certainly restrict flow. Now if the outlet was coming straight down it might fit. But I do not want to buy something and get stuck with it, plus MG Cycle are not very friendly lately and their return policy is designed to favor their bottom line, and not so much the customer.

I like the idea of the manual petcock, especially since I removed my electronic one and disassembled it, it is essentially a coil with a moving piston in the middle that has an o-ring sealing the tank outlet using a spring when not activated. As soon as ignition is ON electricity activates the coil, the piston is retracted and fuel pours into the outlet. So with mine, the spring has gotten a bit weak and it will fail shortly I'm afraid (or it will be always on, which is not that bad, I guess).

So, I am now looking for a manual petcock with a 16 mm x 1 nut and with an outlet angled 45 degrees down.

Let me know everybody if you see one, thanks!

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Apparently Scott you are very passionate about this


I will post a reply later this weekend addressing the points I agree with you but also where I do not. For the most part you are -in principle- correct, but you are also being very judgmental (to the point of being rude) and without realizing that some (not all, just some) of your claims are not valid. 'till later then, most likely Sunday, look for my reply. But just for the sake of the conversation, to whom are you replying specifically with your comment above (Mon at 11:06 AM) ?!

Cheers!

I wouldn't say passionate. I'm much more accurately described as being disgusted with this particular segment of the aftermarket LED lighting craze of the last 10 or so years because it is full of exagerations, half-truths, outright lies for the most part, and as a mechanic, I see these items every month, month in and month out. People bring me motorcycles galore with erratic or psychotic behaving electrics, due to so many of these types of devices.

Please don't personalize something that isn't personal. Nothing I wrote is meant or was designed as a pejorative to you.

My issue is with the purveyors of these type devices. Some, go to some length to try to design the turn signal LED's with terminating resistors built into them, hoping that this design will mimic incandescent bulbs and theoretically work with the stock motorcycle setups, but sadly, so very many, do not work as intended. It is a very sloppy aftermarket area in my opinion.

The light only LED’s are exactly as I said in that the light housings, condensers and lenses, unless they were specifically made to concentrate a LED light pathway, simply do not work correctly because of the LED light pathway and the laws of physics with regard to optics.

I apologize if you interpreted any of my writing as being directed at you in a pejorative manner. I assure you it was not.

I just wanted to state what was happening, why it was happening, that unfortunately it was self-induced based upon a belief in the products merchantability for its intended purpose, and the most expeditious manner of restoring normal function.

Admittedly, I can be very blunt and direct to a fault. My bad. Again, I apologize as I did not mean to be rude.

I think it is unfair to paint me as "anti-LED" as I am not. I have purpose designed LED lighting on some of my motorcycles myself. My Ural is covered in them as it is my off-road machine. My Stelvio NTX has LED auxiliary lights and the tail light is OEM LED.

It would be much more accurate to say that I am "anti" to most of these these one-size-fits-all "plug and play" products which are in fact, not that at all, and that people who install them, usually have ZERO technical support from the manufacturers and sellers of these items, precisely because of their "hit or miss" functionality nature.

Invariably, they call or come into motorcycle repair shops asking questions, or they seek help on the forums.

I understand that this particular event is unique to you and your perspective. I see it 50x a year so I guess I am very jaded about in your eyes.

Unfortunately, as most manufacturers do not publish the specifications of this particular aspect of the electronic system, it makes it rather difficult at best, and a complete crap shoot at worst, to adequately diagnose and or rectify problems caused by the use of these types of LED products.

Isn't that why you posted here in the first place? To get a solution to your hyperflashing?

In order to get to a good solution, we first have to define the problem, which was an incompatibility of the LED products you installed into your motorcycles wiring, and specifically, the turn signal flashing circuitry. You have hyper-flashing.

Did I miss something there?

So, although I believe what I wrote was accurate, I apologize if I've made a mistake in something. I'm sure you'll let me know. I'm certainly not infallible by any standard and I'll gladly admit my errors, if demonstrated to be as such.

I meant for my response to help you back from the precipice and get your equipment operational as quickly as possibly. Turn signals are a primary form of communication and their function needs to be a priority to be working properly, even if common usage is less than stellar by most.

Lastly, as mentioned in my reply to John Zibel, there was a reply to me, from Amboman, (Charlie), who is what you likely would describe as very pro-LED.

He mistook what I was trying to say and was arguing the benefits of LED's and his experience with them and that he disagreed with what I said. (I think he meant specifically that I think most of the eBay and Amazon cheap stuff is snake oil.) Also, then, John Zibel wrote and he is also pro-LED.

My point was not meant to be a LED bad or LED good argument. It was meant to point out what was causing the issue, and why.

Apparently, Charlie deleted his post. I'm sorry for that too. I was overpowering it would seem and I don't want to be the cause of something like that.

Humans do human things, myself included.

So based upon this, I'm sure you are accurate in that I overdid it somewhat.

Guess I missed the mark and missed communicating clearly what I was trying to say. Mea culpa. My bad.

So…Maybe somebody will chime in who has successfully done what you wish to do and will elucidate how they accomplished it.

I cannot tell you how to accomplish it so I’m done putting in my 25 cents worth. Ok.

I hope so and that you are able to solve your issue to your satisfaction.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Let me know everybody if you see one, thanks!

At the risk of offending…

Given that if it is simply gravity feed, you have tremendous flexibility in putting a leader on your actual fuel line using a metal carved hose connector, and this leader can have a nice gentle curve to it as it makes its way to your main fuel line.

Just a cost effective, simple and effective, potential solution to your issue.

Another way is to utilize a Japanese motorcycle petcock with a vacuum diaphragm shutoff.

You can utilize vacuum from your intake manifold, to open and close the fuel flow when the bike is running and not.

Just some ideas.

 

[john zibell]

John, I just saw this old comment of yours, I was reading the ...passionate anti-LED posts by Scott and realized you had replied to my electronic/manual petcock question. Well, to cut to the chase MG Cycle still offers this manual petcock but here's my issue:

The original electronic one on my bike has an outlet angled 45 degrees down. The one at MC Cycle has an outlet at 90 degrees. The existing fuel tube coming from the filter is so thick and reinforced with wire mesh that it will not bend to fit the 90 degree outlet. It will certainly restrict flow. Now if the outlet was coming straight down it might fit. But I do not want to buy something and get stuck with it, plus MG Cycle are not very friendly lately and their return policy is designed to favor their bottom line, and not so much the customer.

I like the idea of the manual petcock, especially since I removed my electronic one and disassembled it, it is essentially a coil with a moving piston in the middle that has an o-ring sealing the tank outlet using a spring when not activated. As soon as ignition is ON electricity activates the coil, the piston is retracted and fuel pours into the outlet. So with mine, the spring has gotten a bit weak and it will fail shortly I'm afraid (or it will be always on, which is not that bad, I guess).

So, I am now looking for a manual petcock with a 16 mm x 1 nut and with an outlet angled 45 degrees down.

Let me know everybody if you see one, thanks!

The hose will go on. You just have to work at it. I've replaced the electric with a manual on every bike I've worked on and not had any issue getting the hose on.

 

[Dimi Pana]

The hose will go on. You just have to work at it. I've replaced the electric with a manual on every bike I've worked on and not had any issue getting the hose on.

OK, will do. Did you always buy this manual petcock from MG Cycles? Thanks!

Part # 01105460

 

[Dimi Pana]

At the risk of offending…

Given that if it is simply gravity feed, you have tremendous flexibility in putting a leader on your actual fuel line using a metal carved hose connector, and this leader can have a nice gentle curve to it as it makes its way to your main fuel line.

Just a cost effective, simple and effective, potential solution to your issue.

Another way is to utilize a Japanese motorcycle petcock with a vacuum diaphragm shutoff.

You can utilize vacuum from your intake manifold, to open and close the fuel flow when the bike is running and not.

Just some ideas.




View attachment 26275

I don't see how. The fuel line is coming at a 45 degree angle from below. The existing petcock meets it at exactly 45 degrees coming from above. It's a perfect match. Installing a 90 degree outlet petcock will require some ..."work", there is simply not enough fuel hose length to make a graceful bend. But as John says, it will fit (eventually, I just don't see how). btw, the part you show in the picture is straight, e.g. 0 degrees out of the fuel hose. How's this going to help. I just can't visualize it?!

 

[john zibell]

OK, will do. Did you always buy this manual petcock from MG Cycles? Thanks!

Part # 01105460

I purchased from a dealer when they had them in stock, and from MG when a dealer didn't have one in stock. I like to support dealers. For a dealer to stay in business it isn't easy.

 

[Dimi Pana]

Scott, I am sorry, I have to be honest, it is a bit tiresome to carefully read your long and repetitive posts.

Really quick, and because I want to keep my promise that I'd reply on Sunday:

1. LEDs outperform incandescent bulbs in pretty much every category. Look it up you will see what I mean. And yes it is not an "upgrade" but not a "downgrade" either It is a mod, IF done correctly. And you are right, "hacking" into the loom is not the way to go unless you know exactly what you are doing.

2. You keep pressing the "hyperflashing" issue. Hyperflashing is defined as when your blinkers pulse at more than say 110-115 times per minute. I am not 100% sure but according to the DOT anything more than 120 is illegal. I was partially wrong in my OP, sorry, with what I described but I am sure my issue is not hyperflashing. What happens is all four LEDs come ON and stay ON (solid) at once, but they do not blink as hazards. That is because of the way electrical systems on motorcycles with a single indicator dashboard light were designed and I am not sure if it has to do with the electrical system letting you know when a bulb has burned out. BUT, I researched it, the solution is documented, it works, and I will implement it soon. I will post the results.

3. Btw, you need to research some of the facts about light propagation. yes, a standard bulb will project light in an omnidirectional fashion. But LEDs have approx. a 220 degree spectrum (e.g no light emitted in the other 140 degrees, eg. to the back.) Standard bulbs use special lenses, yes, but LEDs have more concentration in these forward facing 220 degrees that make your point a bit moot. So the fact the reflectors/lenses are not designed for LED, has little do and the proof is in the pudding: Does it look brighter or not? Will the driver behind me see it? The answer is YES. LEDs outperform standard bulbs in luminance per wattage. Here's what you can do. If you have a smart phone download this app: "Light Meter" by "My Mobile Tools Dev". and do the following experiment. Use the app to measure luminace of a LED vs an incandescent bulb at predetermined distances. I did that using the same lens (the one made for incandescent) and LED wins hands down.

4. My main reason for going to LEDs is that I want to take some load off my battery/alternator system in order to add a couple of auxiliary lights. As is the MG suffers in that respect and since I cannot easily and cheaply change the alternator, I had to compromise and settle for LEDs. I have calculated that by going LED I can save a lot of wattage which I can put to better use elsewhere. But I agree that a good headlight LED, H4 in my case, is hard to find, ie. with enough luminance and the proper light pattern cut-off so you see better AND not blind oncoming trafic, and if you find one it's too cumbersome to install, fans, electronics, etc, and usually too expensive to be a viable alternative to halogen. But technology improves and this is working for us who are not negatively disposed to LEDs.

5. I agree with you on pretty much everything else, but please bear in mind that if I opt to change my bulbs to LED and the result is satisfactory to me and above all legal, then it is no one's business to tell me whether I am obsessed, or even a lunatic, (or whatever names you used) for wanting to do that. Sorry brother, we live in a free country, at least for now, and we still have freedom of speech and choice. I agree that buying cheap products from China does not help our economy much, so let's start lobbying our "wise" representatives in local, state and federal government to do something about it.

Enjoy the rest of your Sunday, I for one am going for a beer ... cheers!

 

[Dimi Pana]

I purchased from a dealer when they had them in stock, and from MG when a dealer didn't have one in stock. I like to support dealers. For a dealer to stay in business it isn't easy.

I agree, when you find a good honest dealer, it's worth supporting. About MG Cycle, I can't complain much but lately I'm getting some strange vibes from them and the fact they operate under very strict and occasionally not so customer friendly policies is a bit of a turn-off to me. But, hey, it is what it is and at the end of the day, if they have the part at a reasonable price (well not always) I just ...let it be.

So this is the exact part (manual petcock) you were talking about?!

 

[V700Steve]

Dimi, There is now a new dealer in Roselle on Rt19 just west of Roselle road, guaranteed they know nothing about your bike.

 

[Dimi Pana]

Thanks for letting me know, I am in Des Plaines so it's not that far. Beats having to go to Milwaukee or NW Indiana ... Btw, are you also a ...neighbor (lol) ?!

 

[V700Steve]

I .grew up next to DuPage Airport, farmed the family farm in Waterman, had a Guzzi repair shop in Kingston. Was IL State Rep for MGNOC before I met my wife & moved to GA in 05.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

I don't see how. The fuel line is coming at a 45 degree angle from below. The existing petcock meets it at exactly 45 degrees coming from above. It's a perfect match. Installing a 90 degree outlet petcock will require some ..."work", there is simply not enough fuel hose length to make a graceful bend. But as John says, it will fit (eventually, I just don't see how). btw, the part you show in the picture is straight, e.g. 0 degrees out of the fuel hose. How's this going to help. I just can't visualize it?!

The idea is to make a “leader” for your fuel line.

You have a length of fuel line connected to your 90 degree outlet, such that you may make the requisite bend necessary without any kinking or strain, and you then “couple” this leader to your existing fuel line, via a metal barb union, like in the photo.

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Ok.

———————————-

This is what you wrote:

…I have switched the flasher to an LED one, but it won't work...

…With all 4 LEDs L or R turn results to ...hazard lights, i.e. all 4 blinking at once…

…I have no idea what to do to make it work with all 4 LED flashers…

…Also, any tips/feedback about anything that has to do with LED conversions…

Well, I offered you an answer based upon what you wrote.

…I was partially wrong in my OP, sorry…

If you wrote inaccuracies, then what can I say?

The information I offered you was correct for your stated conditions, and again, even if they (all 4) remain lit, the issue is the same. The electric turn signal flasher control is expecting different conditions than you currently have. If the conditions are returned to “stock” as I said, the problem immediately disappears.

———————————-

Next:

Scott, I am sorry, I have to be honest, it is a bit tiresome to carefully read your long and repetitive posts.

I don’t mind reading your long post. In fact, I enjoy long posts.

To that topic I say this.

I refuse to write like a common 13 year old on Twitter, (12 words or less), in order to accommodate the readers limited level of reading comprehension.

You may always ignore it or just skip past.

What was that you wrote?

…Sorry brother, we live in a free country, at least for now, and we still have freedom of speech and choice…

———————————-

Next:

…

1. …LEDs outperform incandescent bulbs in pretty much every category…

As to all your arguments in favor of LED, again you are making points that I do not disagree with and have stated so several times now. Amboman (Charlie) and John Zibell were curiously doing the same thing.

This defense and singing of the praises of LED’s had nothing to do with what I wrote.

I wrote about your stated issue specific to your stated conditions.

I did not attempt to enter into a debate as to the pros or cons of LED’s.

…I AM NOT SAYING THAT LED'S ARE BAD OR UNWARRANTED OR NOT BETTER IN MANY WAYS!…

———————————-

Next:

…You keep pressing the "hyperflashing" issue. Hyperflashing is defined as when your blinkers pulse at more than say 110-115 times per minute…

You do not understand the mechanic vernacular.

What you described, is indeed called “hyper-flashing”.

“Hyper-flashing” in this regard, means that the lights are flashing quicker than normal, due to this electric system design whereby the turn signals flash at a different rate than normal, to alert you a bulb is burned out.

Put your normal OEM type bulbs back in. Check the flashing rate. Then remove just one bulb. Any one. Re-check the flashing rate and it will be considerably faster, usually twice as fast.

That is “Hyperflashing” in this context.

You can read about it here:

jwspeaker.com/blog/how-to-fix-hyper-flashing-with-led-lights/

———————————-

Next:

…it is no one's business to tell me whether I am obsessed, or even a lunatic, (or whatever names you used) for wanting to do that…

I never said you were obsessed or a lunatic.

You have twisted a “general rhetorical overview” referenced as “this” (the current national craze with LED motorcycle lighting over the last 10 years), into a personal pejorative attack believed to be directed at you. I told you that this absolutely was not the case.

If I had intended to direct it at you, I would have used the word “your” instead of “this”.

...What is this OBSESSION with LED lights?…

…I will never understand this lunacy with LED lights. Never. Never. Never.

They are not better. They are not brighter. They are not compatible with the electrical system design…

…Just use the standard incandescent and halogen bulbs the system was designed to operate with…

Bottom line is I wasn’t telling you WHAT to do.

I was telling you what your issue was based upon your statements, and why it was happening and how to fix it quickly.

What you do or don’t do with the knowledge, I couldn’t care less.

——————————-

Next:

…3. Btw, you need to research some of the facts about light propagation. yes, a standard bulb will project light in an omnidirectional fashion. But LEDs have approx. a 220 degree spectrum (e.g no light emitted in the other 140 degrees, eg. to the back.) Standard bulbs use special lenses, yes, but LEDs have more concentration in these forward facing 220 degrees that make your point a bit moot…

Your statements about LED light here are completely incorrect.

Oh, what the hell…nothing to loose at this point in the discussion…

They are actually dead wrong.

If you are going to lecture me on science, you better have your ducks in a row.

I’m not the best author, or the greatest at non-verbal communication, but when it comes to math, science, chemistry, biology, physics, and engineering, I excel.

It is my lifelong passion and I am as comfortable in it as fish in the sea.

Others may read fiction but I never have. I don’t enjoy it.

I read published scientific papers, journals and technical materials.




If you would like to actually read the science, (something I revel in doing) I suggest this page.

Unfortunately, it is long, has complex scientific writing and vernacular, and is a highly informing yet challenging read.

I’m pretty sure you will absolutely hate it as it involves significant effort to digest and absorb.

However, it is totally accurate and it will correct your wrong ideas should you wish to speak intelligently in the future, on the topic of LED light propagation.

olympus-lifescience.com/en/microscope-resource/primer/lightandcolor/ledsintro/

Confirming my position I stated about LED’s which started all of this frivolity in the first place, the final paragraph says it all:

“Although the potential benefits in application of LEDs are tremendous, consideration of their unique characteristics is necessary in incorporating these devices into lighting schemes in place of more familiar conventional sources.”

So Dimi Pana, this is my final comment on this topic.

Be happy.

 

[Dimi Pana]

I .grew up next to DuPage Airport, farmed the family farm in Waterman, had a Guzzi repair shop in Kingston. Was IL State Rep for MGNOC before I met my wife & moved to GA in 05.

Well Steve you have quite a ...resume! By the way are you talking about 'Top Gear Powersports' on Irving Park just west of Roselle road? Are they a Guzzi dealer now?! I've heard good things about them you know family owned with quite a few years in business and good reputation. I'll have to ride over there and introduce myself! Thanks for letting me know.

 

[V700Steve]

Yes, that's the place.