2005 California intermittant fuel problem?

[DickLinn]

My first post here, although I've been reading up some. I'm working on a Friend's F.I. 2005 California Platinum.
The problem is this:
It sat for a several months, wouldn't run off an idle. Grab a fist of throttle, and it coughs, spits back, hesitates, and dies unless you let off.
Pulled the tank and someone had removed the filter that comes unhooked, and bypassed it. So I left it that way.
I started checking stuff out, eventually remounted the tank, started it up, and voila, after tweaking the position of the TPS slightly, it started running just fine. Now, I moved the TPS like an old fashioned mixture adjustment, just slightly moved it till the idle smoothed out and it then responded smoothly to throttle.
Fine. Done.
Couple of weeks later, my friend tries starting it again, the problem's back.
Did some reading on the web, sounds like the TPS. Pick up a TPS at a swap meet, it's a harley part, but it's a PF1C, not the PF3, or 4.
Well, didn't solve the problem, put the original PF3C back on, get out the oscilloscope and look at the waveform off the variable output of the TPS. It presents a smooth flat DC waveform that changes with the throttle position and appears to be doing just what a fancy potentiometer should do.
H'mmm. Next look at the wave form on the fuel injectors.
It's a negative going pulse, from 12v to approx 0v, that varies from about 5millisec to 15 millisec when I grab a fistful of throttle. The engine, however, when I grab that fistful, coughs, backfires, hesitates and otherwise does not want to rev up.
So, the question is, does it seem reasonable to assume that perhaps it isn't an electronic issue, but a fuel delivery issue, as in not enough?
Obviously, I don't have access to the fancy software diagnostic tools.
Also, when I had the tank off, I checked the pressure fuel pump press. by jerry rigging it up to run and putting a press. gauge on the output. looked o.k, ideas?
Thanks,Dick

 

[GTM®]

Hi Dick, welcome.

I'm not sure what a Platinum is, but an '05 Cali should have an 02-sensor, yes? If so, your conventional tests are going to help you much as it could be a dirty injector to a bad ECU. Where are you located? Have you checked the valve lash? It should be a hydraulic lifter, so there's a how-to for the cam recall here on this Forum.

 

[john zibell]

The correct procedure for setting the TPS is here https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/1676.html?start=30 If you don't have access to VDSTS, the voltage for 3.6 degrees is on the MPH web pages under tech info. Opps, just checked, that page has gone missing again so look at the attached PDF to set the TPS with a DMM.

 

[DickLinn]

Thanks for responding guys. I think the Platinum refers to all the accessories added to this bike?
No O2 sensor that I can find, looked the exhaust system over for a sensor, didn't see one.
The bike ran well with the TPS set at about .8 volts, 1000rpm idle if I recall rightly. (which happens less and less all the time!) That, of course, is when it wants to run right. This is an intermittent problem.
Supposedly it worked fine, was put up for a couple of months then had the problem.
Last week, I started out one morning working on it, had the problem. Replaced the TPS with the Harley one, no dif. reinstalled the Guzzi one, no dif. checked lots of wires for continuity, no change, went to lunch, came back 1.5 hrs later, It worked! Then in the course of 2-3 minutes, it went off song until we were back to not taking any throttle without spitting coughing and not accelerating. (the garage was heated, ambient temp, 65 deg).

I live near Ithaca, NY, that's in the central upstate Finger Lakes region.
Dick

 

[john zibell]

Thanks for responding guys. I think the Platinum refers to all the accessories added to this bike?
No O2 sensor that I can find, looked the exhaust system over for a sensor, didn't see one.
The bike ran well with the TPS set at about .8 volts, 1000rpm idle if I recall rightly. (which happens less and less all the time!) That, of course, is when it wants to run right. This is an intermittent problem.
Supposedly it worked fine, was put up for a couple of months then had the problem.
Last week, I started out one morning working on it, had the problem. Replaced the TPS with the Harley one, no dif. reinstalled the Guzzi one, no dif. checked lots of wires for continuity, no change, went to lunch, came back 1.5 hrs later, It worked! Then in the course of 2-3 minutes, it went off song until we were back to not taking any throttle without spitting coughing and not accelerating. (the garage was heated, ambient temp, 65 deg).

I live near Ithaca, NY, that's in the central upstate Finger Lakes region.
Dick

OK, TPS set too high. Should be a 0.524 volts, not 0.8. Have you checked all your connectors? Intermittent problems are usually electrical. Remove every connector and spray with something like TV tuner and contact cleaner or ACF 50. It doesn't take much corrosion to mess up the signals. I know the area where you live, cold and damp doesn't help the electrical system.

 

[DickLinn]

Cold and Damp pretty much sums it up... No, haven't gone through all the connectors as yet, will do.
On the schematic I have, it indicates that there is an air temp sensor in series with the TPS. I found it, it's located between the coils near the top frame rail. Do these units have a history?
As for the .5v, that's at a 1000 rpm idle? Just double checking engine speed for that reading.
Thanks for helping out.
Dick

 

[john zibell]

Cold and Damp pretty much sums it up... No, haven't gone through all the connectors as yet, will do.
On the schematic I have, it indicates that there is an air temp sensor in series with the TPS. I found it, it's located between the coils near the top frame rail. Do these units have a history?
As for the .5v, that's at a 1000 rpm idle? Just double checking engine speed for that reading.
Thanks for helping out.
Dick

The link above gives the procedure for setting the TPS correctly. I'll repeat it here:

CALIFORNIA TPS & THROTTLE BODY SYNC PROCEDURE

1. Detach the connecting rod between the throttle bodies.
2. Inspect the TPS to see if it has been moved. If you suspect it has been moved go to step 3, if it has not been changed go to step 5.
3. Turn the L/H throttle stop screw out until throttle plate is fully closed.
4. Using a volt meter, check that the TPS reads 150mV using the two outside wires at the TPS sensor connector. If the values are different, loosen the two fastening screws and reposition correctly.
5. Turn the L/H throttle stop screw until the Axone reads 3.2 To 3.6 degrees
6. Re-attach the connecting rod.
7. Fully close both by-pass screws gently.
8. Adjust the R/H throttle stop screw to lightly touch the throttle plate arm without changing the Axone TPS reading.
9. Connect the vacuum meter to the ports on the intake manifolds.
10. Bring the engine to 50 degrees C.
11. Bring engine speed to between 2000-3000 RPM’s & Adjust the cylinder equalization using the 7mm throttle body adjustment screw located on the top of the L/H throttle body. (It points inward at the throttle cables)
At idle, adjust the by-pass screws to achieve vacuum equalization.
12. Then adjust the by-pass screws equally to achieve the correct Idle speed of 1100 +/-50 RPM

Look at steps 3 through 5. Get the 150 Mv reading with the throttle fully closed. The use the idle stop screw to get a reading of 524 Mv. That will put the throttle plate and TPS at the correct position.

As for the air temperature sensor, it has little effect on the bikes running. The engine temperature sensor has a greater impact. Perhaps you should invest in a VDSTS so you can observe the sensors in real time. The temperature sensors are not extremely accurate in what they report. So long as they are close, and readings change as they should is about as good as you can get.

 

[GTM®]

In keeping up with this... have you check verified spark? Often fuel problems are similar to fuel delivery issues, and are often mistaken for each other. Just a thought.

 

[DickLinn]

Thanks for the responses.
I made a simplistic check of spark by applying an inductive timing light to both spark leads and got a consistent trigger when the engine was not running properly. Only a rough check I agree, and am open to further suggestions on that line. On a points system, I'd pull a plug, lay it on the head, and look for a fat spark when cranking. Is this dangerous with an ECU?
I agree the TPS isn't right, but I'm drawn back to the situation where it wouldn't RUN before lunch, and after lunch, it ran for a couple of minutes just fine!
Good point on problems with the fuel itself. I've been told that the old gas was removed and fresh gas added before I got on the Job.
What does VDSTS cost, and would someone here be willing to buy the used copy when I'm done with this bike? The deal is my friend runs a small shop, and this is the only Guzzi he's likely to see
Thanks,Dick

 

[john zibell]

There are two versions of VDSTS. Standard that will work on only one ECU type, and the European Pro that will work on all the Marelli ECUs https://www.guzzitech.com/store/TR-VDSTS.html

 

[GTM®]

Thanks John. Dick, it looks like you are mid-NY State. I went through my records and I don't have anyone near you that purchased a 15M Kit. There are some in the Western part of the State, and of course NY, NY and North.
It hit me that you are likely working on a ('02~03) Titanium or Aluminum. Curious to hear if it has any branding that says Hydraulic valves (valvole idrauliche), if so, post or send me the VIN# to run a check on it for you. They had some cam recalls that might hint to the problem you are possibly experiencing as well. Really hard to trouble shoot via the net, but we're trying.
The 15M Kits aren't big sellers, so I don't know if you'd be in a rush sell it, but I'd imagine you'd find a taker for the right price.
The link John provided is from me/GuzziTech. Ping me direct if you have any questions or would like other payment options.

 

[jackal-buzzard1100]

Hola a todos los miembros de este foro.Acabo de registrarme en este momento y no se si esta es la forma mas adecuada de presentarme, aun así os comento que aunque la distancia sea grande, pues soy de España, hay problemas que nos acaban uniendo.Mi preciosa niña es una Jackal, y en el momento de la compra ya adolecía de un poco de catarro, pues tenia unas toses que la hacían ir a tirones .Pensaba que seria una simple puesta a punto, pero al final era un problemas con el TPS, con 20.000 Km estaba destrozada la resistancia, por lo que irremediablemente tuve que cambiarlo.Debido a la diferencia de precio, instale el PF 4C pues también me había alimentado de la sabiduría de algunos enlaces y foros, que a la par que este, ponen sabiduría a disposición .Lo deje en 525 milivoltios, regulé con un vacuómetro los dos cilindros y a hacer kilómetros.La moto va bien, pero tengo la sensación de que no va perfecta (no se si sera mi particular percepción ).Hay algo que no entiendo: ¿ Si la ECU (centralita) regula la inyección de combustible según le indica el TPS ( angulo de apertura de mariposa) ; si se abren los tornillos del by-pass mas de lo estrictamente necesario según el vacuómetro, pienso que lo que se hace es cambiar la relación estequiométrica ?.¿ Por qué según Guzzi esta es la forma de llevarla a las 1050 rpm?. Como sabéis la Jackal no tiene contrarrevoluciones. Tengo documentado mi problema en el siguiente foro: http://guzzistas.mforos.com/656247/1054 ... car=jackal
Un saludo, Jackal-buzzard1100.

 

[john zibell]

Hola a todos los miembros de este foro.Acabo de registrarme en este momento y no se si esta es la forma mas adecuada de presentarme, aun así os comento que aunque la distancia sea grande, pues soy de España, hay problemas que nos acaban uniendo.Mi preciosa niña es una Jackal, y en el momento de la compra ya adolecía de un poco de catarro, pues tenia unas toses que la hacían ir a tirones .Pensaba que seria una simple puesta a punto, pero al final era un problemas con el TPS, con 20.000 Km estaba destrozada la resistancia, por lo que irremediablemente tuve que cambiarlo.Debido a la diferencia de precio, instale el PF 4C pues también me había alimentado de la sabiduría de algunos enlaces y foros, que a la par que este, ponen sabiduría a disposición .Lo deje en 525 milivoltios, regulé con un vacuómetro los dos cilindros y a hacer kilómetros.La moto va bien, pero tengo la sensación de que no va perfecta (no se si sera mi particular percepción ).Hay algo que no entiendo: ¿ Si la ECU (centralita) regula la inyección de combustible según le indica el TPS ( angulo de apertura de mariposa) ; si se abren los tornillos del by-pass mas de lo estrictamente necesario según el vacuómetro, pienso que lo que se hace es cambiar la relación estequiométrica ?.¿ Por qué según Guzzi esta es la forma de llevarla a las 1050 rpm?. Como sabéis la Jackal no tiene contrarrevoluciones. Tengo documentado mi problema en el siguiente foro: http://guzzistas.mforos.com/656247/1054 ... car=jackal
Un saludo, Jackal-buzzard1100.

Here is the Google translation for those of us who don't read Spanish. It isn't perfect, but the best Google can do.

Hello to all members of this foro.Acabo to register at this time and do not know if this is the most appropriate to introduce myself, yet I commented that although the distance is great, because I'm from Spain, there are problems just joining us . My beautiful girl is a Jackal, and the time of purchase and suffered a little cold, for he had a cough that made her go to jerks. I thought it would be a simple setup, but in the end was a problem with TPS, with 20,000 Km the resistance was broken, so inevitably I had to cambiarlo.Debido the price difference, then install the 4C PF also had fed me the wisdom of some links and forums, that along this , put wisdom available. I left him at 525 millivolts, adjusted with a vacuum gauge to the two cylinders and kilómetros.La bike is good, but I have a feeling it will not perfect (maybe it's my personal perception). There is something I do not understand: If the ECU (ECU) controls the fuel injection according indicates the TPS (throttle opening angle), if the screws are opened by-pass more than is strictly necessary as a gauge, I think what doing is changing the stoichiometric ratio?. Why Guzzi as this is the way to bring it to the 1050 rpm?. As you know the Jackal has no counter-revolutions. I have documented my problem in the following forum: http://guzzistas.mforos.com/656247/1054 ... car = jackal
Regards,-buzzard1100 Jackal.