2007 Norge: Is the ECU or dash the culprit

[2veloce]

The guys at Wildgoose suggested GuzziTech is the place for answers/guidance so here I am...a total newbie to this forum. Not only am I new here but I'm completely new to Guzzi's being a Goldwing and BMW owner.

Here's the deal: A friend of mine has offered to sell me his 2007 Norge at a seemingly very attractive price..<$4500. The bike has less than 7000 miles and the finish is pristine being garaged in climate controlled storage. He has a 'stable' of rides (Harley) and the Guzzi is the odd bike out. The bike hasn't been ridden in about 2 years and the owner knows it has some 'issues'. Further, he told me that any money I spent on the bike would be deducted from the selling price. I asked him to bring the bike by and I'd take a look.

After installing a new battery I thumbed the starter and the Norge roared to life. Wow, it sounds great. But, here's what I found after a quick cursory examination:

a) Not a single instrument or indicator is working on the dash
b) horn works
c) Windscreen switches works both up and down
d) front marker lights and tail light work when ignition is turned on.
e) Low/high beam do not function but the passing light works.
f) Turn signals do not work
g) brake light works from both hand level and foot pedal
h) 12v is live at cigarette plug under seat
i) rear brakes feels spongy
j) The ABS pump runs continuously. It can only be stopped by pulling the 40-amp fuse.

After reading about dash problems with the Norge, I pulled the dash and checked the plug. It was tight and pins are clean. I can confirm +12v to pins 1, 11, 21 and 22 on the dash plug. Also have ground to appropriate pins.
I also check for continuity at pins 2 and 12 for the 'direction indicator command'. When I thumbed the turn signals I read continuity so I assume the basic integrity of the wiring and switch is OK.

Have also checked and cleaned battery ground. Have also pulled every relay and inspected pins for possible corrosion/contamination and all are clean. Have separated every connector I can find and reseated them.

So, do I just have a dash problem, a problem with the ECU, a problem with the ABS pump or a combination of all three? With all of this going on, I'm at a loss for which to check first or really where to begin. BTW, I know this bike was likely jump started many times. The Norge sat idle for long periods of time between rides and the battery often went flat. When I heard this I began to think 'bad ECU'.

The only dealer in NC is about 100 miles away and hasn't been a dealer all that long so I don't know his capabilities in handling possible issues like this bike may have. So, before I start going up and down the highway and spending a lot of time and money, I was advised by a friend of mine and fellow Guzzi owner to check the Guzzi forums for answers and or guidance.

If anyone has any advice, suggestions, comments or questions, I'm all ears and will be most appreciative. I'm a decent wrench and have access to a good electrical guy if this makes any difference in your responses.

Lastly, is this bike worth the $4500 price or should the ABS, dash and possible ECU be a sign to let this bike find another home??

 

[john zibell]

That $4500 price could equal the repair bill. It sounds like there is a significant issue with the dash, but it does recognize the key so it isn't completely trashed. Since the dash isn't responding, you can't even get to the diagnostics menu, or can you? I'd say go a little further to Rider's Hill in Georgia for them to check it out and let you know what the repair bill would be. They can hook up diagnostics to see the error codes. If that is too much trouble, walk away from this bike.

 

[2veloce]

The potential OEM repair bill has me worried a little too. However, I'm following a post at Wildgoose about a guy who sent his dash to CARMO Electronics (Netherlands) to have his dash repaired. The dash is supposed to be returned to the owner in a few days and he promised to post the results of the rebuild. I've spoken to CARMO personally and they say the worst case price is $450 for a repair.

Harper's has a new ECU for a reasonable price but I have also seen ads for motorcycle oriented shops in located the UK who have or can rebuild Guzzi 5AM ECU's.

I spoke to Module Master in Idaho and they are currently rebuilding Bosch ABS units for BMW bikes. I sent them photos of the Guzzi's ABS unit and the guy I spoke to said he was reasonably sure they could repair the Gizzi ABS unit for under $200.00.

The spongy rear brakes....OK, maybe I also need a new rear MC for the brakes at <$100.

So if this is really all that I need and it solves the problems I would not be in too deep by going through these vendors instead of OEM.

I've read several posts about Guzzidiag and Ducatidia and what can be read by these software programs. Noting their similarity, and with that thought in mind, I spoke to the local Ducati dealer. I asked if they could hook up their scan tool and read the ECU in this bike. He said he'd be willing to try at no cost. Any opinions as to the usefulness of doing this?

Hopefully, someone on GuzziTech can offer a step-by-step check list to systematically zero in on the root cause(s) of this bike's issues. Still searching for the magic bullet.

 

[Brian UK]

If you are hesitant about connecting a new battery, you can end up flashing the contact on the battery a couple of times. This can confuse the dash. Try disconnecting the battery again, then reconnect it firmly.
When you do reconnect it the dash should go through its reset proceedure, the dials should sweep end to end.

 

[GTM®]

If the bike starts and runs, it's *very likely not* the ECU. The dash is completely independent of the ECU, outside of the kill circuit if the RFID chip in the key is not present/linked. My guess is the dash needs replaced or repaired... likely the former unless it's a simple fix like corrosion in the connector or the connector is not seated correctly.
Do you know which diagnostic tool the Duc shop uses? I would absolutely take them up on the offer of a free diagnostic read if they can connect. See what they find as to any codes; listed in the main section under the CARC heading.
I too sell OEM/GT-Rx Guzzi ECUs if/as needed.
The ABS pump should be running as long as the bike is running, so not sure what you're hearing as to alarm you. Perhaps check to see that the fuse block for the pump is connected properly to the battery (it might not be if the battery was removed).
A mushy brake pedal could mean the bike needs a brake bleed (quite complex on ABS bikes), and/or it *might* need the rear master replaced. All of the Brembo masters on the bikes are price-point units... not their best by far.
Outside of the possible fractured oil pump series, the bike sounds fair if you think you could have it under or near market value when all is said and done *IF* you like the bike and want to own/ride it. If it's for resale only, I'd run away.

 

[2veloce]

The ABS pump should be running as long as the bike is running, so not sure what you're hearing as to alarm you. Perhaps check to see that the fuse block for the pump is connected properly to the battery (it might not be if the battery was removed).
A mushy brake pedal could mean the bike needs a brake bleed (quite complex on ABS bikes

I'm a little curious of your comment that the pump runs all the time. It is my understanding, after talking with a tech at Module Master (BTW who says they can rebuild ABS units) that the ABS pump is only supposed to activates/run when it receives an input from the wheel sensors. My BMW ABS pump starts with "ignition on" and then promptly cycles off after a cycle period. Is the Guzzi and BMW Bosch systems that different?

You also mention it is difficult to bleed/purge an ABS system because of a certain amount of brake fluid that is trapped inside one of the chambers of the ABS unit. The tech said an easy way to purge that fluid (and air) is to ride the bike and then try to activate the ABS momentarily such as locking up the brakes on some sandy patch of pavement or grass.....be careful here!!!!

still hoping to see a comprehensive check list.

 

[2veloce]

If the bike starts and runs, it's *very likely not* the ECU. The dash is completely independent of the ECU, outside of the kill circuit if the RFID chip in the key is not present/linked. My guess is the dash needs replaced or repaired... likely the former unless it's a simple fix like corrosion in the connector or the connector is not seated correctly.

The ABS pump should be running as long as the bike is running, so not sure what you're hearing as to alarm you. Perhaps check to see that the fuse block for the pump is connected properly to the battery (it might not be if the battery was removed).

Thanks for the reply GT-Rx. However, just to clarify the information I posted, even with the ignition off the ABS pump continues to run. Again, the ONLY way to stop the pump it to pull the 40 amp plug.

Any comments or suggestions as how to diagnose the cause?

 

[john zibell]

If the bike starts and runs, it's *very likely not* the ECU. The dash is completely independent of the ECU, outside of the kill circuit if the RFID chip in the key is not present/linked. My guess is the dash needs replaced or repaired... likely the former unless it's a simple fix like corrosion in the connector or the connector is not seated correctly.

The ABS pump should be running as long as the bike is running, so not sure what you're hearing as to alarm you. Perhaps check to see that the fuse block for the pump is connected properly to the battery (it might not be if the battery was removed).

Thanks for the reply GT-Rx. However, just to clarify the information I posted, even with the ignition off the ABS pump continues to run. Again, the ONLY way to stop the pump it to pull the 40 amp plug.

Any comments or suggestions as how to diagnose the cause?

Start by looking at Carl's schematic for the bike in the Downloads section. https://www.guzzitech.com/phocadownloa ... ge_ABS.gif I'd suspect the ABS control unit. The schematic shows an ABS switch (item 15) have you tried to just switch it off?

 

[2veloce]

Start by looking at Carl's schematic for the bike in the Downloads section. https://www.guzzitech.com/phocadownloa ... ge_ABS.gif I'd suspect the ABS control unit. The schematic shows an ABS switch (item 15) have you tried to just switch it off?

The ABS switch is not and On-Off switch.. it's a momentary switch. To switch the ABS 'on' or 'off' you must push and hold the switch for a few seconds. Therefore, it seems the switching must take place in the ABS unit itself or either in the ECU. This is where one of my biggest questions arise...is it the ECU or the ABS unit. How is it possible to determine which one is faulty????? Could it be a shorted wheel sensor that makes the pump run continuously?

Does anyone have a schematic and understand the logic of the ECU?

 

[john zibell]

Since the fuse supplies voltage to the ABS control unit, my best guess is the unit is at fault. The ABS pump only shuts off when the fuse is pulled. The ECU should not be the issue. As far as I know, no one has the logic of the ECU available as it is proprietary to Marelli.

Your original question was if you should buy this bike or not. You are now aware of the complexities involved. At this point the decision is up to you as to buy the bike or not. Personally, I wouldn't touch that bike.

 

[Brian UK]

The only way to check is to find a dealer with Navigator, or the older Axone, both of which can do diagnostics on the ABS unit. I believe both can also do specific diagnostics on the dash too.

 

[2veloce]

Since the fuse supplies voltage to the ABS control unit, my best guess is the unit is at fault since the ABS pump only shuts off when the fuse is pulled. The ECU should not be the issue. As far as I know, no one has the logic of the ECU available as it is proprietary to Marelli.

At this point I don't feel like I have enough solid information or see anything too technically challenging which would make me just walk away from this bike... yet. This is especially true IF, and I repeat IF, the dash can be repaired for about $450.00 and IF the ABS pump can be repaired for under $200.00. So, I'm being hard headed and still trying to get to the bottom of these problems. Therefore, I raise one more question: is there any chance a shorted wheel sensor (or cable) could cause the pump to run continuously?

 

[Brian UK]

Unfortunately, as the dash is out, you can't see if the ABS light is on or if the speedo works. The speedo uses the ABS sensor.
Thus the only way to find out what is actually wrong with the ABS is to get a diagnostic check done. Yes one of the wheel sensors could cause that problem, but there is no point in guessing.

 

[2veloce]

Unfortunately, as the dash is out, you can't see if the ABS light is on or if the speedo works. The speedo uses the ABS sensor.
Thus the only way to find out what is actually wrong with the ABS is to get a diagnostic check done. Yes one of the wheel sensors could cause that problem, but there is no point in guessing.

Well, it looks like a trip to the nearest dealer...100 miles away. BTW Brian, I used to live in Esher and Hampton some years ago. Really had a wonderful time living there.

 

[2veloce]

Unfortunately, as the dash is out, you can't see if the ABS light is on or if the speedo works. The speedo uses the ABS sensor.
Thus the only way to find out what is actually wrong with the ABS is to get a diagnostic check done. Yes one of the wheel sensors could cause that problem, but there is no point in guessing.

Just purchased a 'used' dash from Ebay for $US 40.00. According to the part number on the back of the dash it is identical to the one on my 2007 Norge. The seller said all lights, functions and LED display of the dash work except the dash memory does not hold the transponder info from the ignition key. Therefore, a service code must be entered each time the bike is started. or this reason the seller sold it as 'non-working'.

I had planned to trailer my bike to a dealer who is about 100 miles away and get him to do a 'diagnostic' to determine if the dash was the problem or if the ECU was at fault. The way I'm looking at this, I may be saving money IF this $40 dash lights up. This would confirm the dash is faulty and I may be able to see some error code for the ABS.

What issues does one experience when installing a second hand dash? How do you overcome/override the issues?

 

[john zibell]

Unfortunately, as the dash is out, you can't see if the ABS light is on or if the speedo works. The speedo uses the ABS sensor.
Thus the only way to find out what is actually wrong with the ABS is to get a diagnostic check done. Yes one of the wheel sensors could cause that problem, but there is no point in guessing.

Just purchased a 'used' dash from Ebay for $US 40.00. According to the part number on the back of the dash it is identical to the one on my 2007 Norge. The seller said all lights, functions and LED display of the dash work except the dash memory does not hold the transponder info from the ignition key. Therefore, a service code must be entered each time the bike is started. or this reason the seller sold it as 'non-working'.

I had planned to trailer my bike to a dealer who is about 100 miles away and get him to do a 'diagnostic' to determine if the dash was the problem or if the ECU was at fault. The way I'm looking at this, I may be saving money IF this $40 dash lights up. This would confirm the dash is faulty and I may be able to see some error code for the ABS.

What issues does one experience when installing a second hand dash? How do you overcome/override the issues?

Do you have the user code for the dash you bought? If you don't you can't get any function out of it. If you do have the user code for that dash you can get to the menu system. From there you can get to the diagnostic menu with the maintenance code. https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/917 Also the Breva guide here will help https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/917 All the functions are the same for the Norge.

 

[Brian UK]

Yes, as John says, unless you have the user code for that dash, which the seller should know, you won't be able to turn the ignition on, as it won't accept your key.

 

[ohiorider]

Check out this post as well as the entire thread on WildGuzzi. Bisbonian sent his dash (1200 Sport) off to them for repair, which they were able to do. Also of interest is his comments about their capability to get around the unknown user code.

wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=65793.msg1007125#msg1007125

Bob

 

[2veloce]

Check out this post as well as the entire thread on WildGuzzi. Bisbonian sent his dash (1200 Sport) off to them for repair, which they were able to do. Also of interest is his comments about their capability to get around the unknown user code.

wildguzzi.com/forum/index.php?topic=65793.msg1007125#msg1007125 Bob

Yes, I've been following Bisbonian's exploits. I too have researched CARMO, most likely around the same time frame as Bisonian, and spoke personally with the US rep. The US rep was the one who told me they 'bulk shipped' stuff to the Netherlands for repair. Most interesting and exciting about Bisbonian's post was to read his repair cost was in the mid -level range.

So, if this $40 dash just lights up then I know my dash is bad and I can proceed with the CARMO repair.

 

[2veloce]

[quote
Just purchased a 'used' dash from Ebay for $US 40.00. According to the part number on the back of the dash it is identical to the one on my 2007 Norge. The seller said all lights, functions and LED display of the dash work except the dash memory does not hold the transponder info from the ignition key. Therefore, a service code must be entered each time the bike is started. or this reason the seller sold it as 'non-working'.

I had planned to trailer my bike to a dealer who is about 100 miles away and get him to do a 'diagnostic' to determine if the dash was the problem or if the ECU was at fault. The way I'm looking at this, I may be saving money IF this $40 dash lights up. This would confirm the dash is faulty and I may be able to see some error code for the ABS.

What issues does one experience when installing a second hand dash? How do you overcome/override the issues?[/quote]


Today I received the $40 'non-working' dash I purchased on Ebay (see above for definition of non-working). The condition of the dash is actually pretty good with only a few minor scratches. After removing my original dash I eagerly plugged in the $40 unit, turned the ignition key and 'Presto'. I now have low beams, high beams, turn signals, speedo, tach, fuel gage, the LED screen and all the idiot lights. Boy, I am one happy camper! Based on this result, I feel pretty safe in saying the integrity of the basic wring and electrical components is "OK" and the most likely the culprit is the dash and not the ECU.

OK, I know it will be a pain to enter the user code each time I start the bike. But, at least I can ride it, get some first hand road experience on a Norge and accumulate any error information which can now read in the diagnostics mode. Assuming everything else checks out "OK" then I can send the original dash off to CARMO for repair as did Bisbonian.

So, it now appears the only major problem left to solve is why the ABS pump runs continuously (even with the ignition off).
I can now see the ABS idiot light on the dash is illuminated. With this very limited information on the ABS system, I'm back
with one of my original questions: What can cause the pump to run continuously other than a bad pump?