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2010 V7C - help with fuel delivery issue

jonmep

Just got it firing!
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
6
Location
Vancouver, BC
Hi Guzzi Techers, we have just added a 2010 V7 Classic to our family of bikes. This one is my wife's primary ride. Here's a run down of the problem, any ideas or suggestions on what to look for would be greatly appreciated:

On a highway ride, after about 30 minutes, when rolling off the throttle slightly the power seemed to drop off, rather than just reduce proportionately. When rolling on the throttle it seemed to bog for a moment before picking up properly. She pulled up at the next light and the engine stalled, although it started again immediately no problem. The engine then hesitated/lurched initially as she pulled away. A few minutes later it was behaving fine again but it started doing it again on the return trip a couple of hours later. She's continued to ride it for the past couple of weeks and it's done this a few times. She says it's most apparent when trying to sit at a constant speed, just rolling on and off the throttle a little to accommodate corners and terrain undulations. It's quite disconcerting to roll on the throttle as you exit a corner and it momentarily bogs. Giving it a bit more gas will pull it through the hesitation, in fact the bike seems to run better when I'm riding it as I tend to be a little enthusiastic with my right hand. As it's fine under hard acceleration I feel like it's not a fuel pump/filter issue.

We've taken it to a dealer who performed a service and checked for obvious things (to him) like vacuum problems caused by the various pipes under the tank. He put in new plugs and commented that the PO had removed the canister. He suggested looking at the plugs after a few rides to see if it was running a bit rich, suggesting a O2 sensor issue. I did that and the plugs look normal/clean.

I know it's hard to diagnose issues from a forum post but does this sound like something caused by the stock lean ECU map or is this a bit too severe to be that? Anything I could try to eliminate things from our enquiries?

Thanks!

Jon
 
Jon, welcome aboard and congrats on the V7. Hope you'll add it to the Registry; https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/topic?f=215&t=9108

Does it do this when run for a short time? Does the fuel tank whoosh air when you open the lid after run for a short time? I really suspect a plugged vent line; It doesn't sound like it could be a fuel leanness condition to me. That said, if everything checks out, I'd be happy to offer you my ECU re-flash for money back if it doesn't fix the problem.
 
It seems to start doing it only after riding for a while, maybe 25 minutes. Then it will be better or worse depending on how it's being ridden. It's worst when riding at a relatively constant speed for a while, say 60-70 kph.

I tried opening the tank after riding for a while and heard no whooshing sound but I will try that again to make sure. I found the end of the two vent lines from the bottom of the fuel tank and was able to blow through them with no perceptible resistance. Not sure if that's a solid test.

I'm really not sure what else to try at this stage. Something seems to be faulty, ECU, O2 sensor, a dodgy connection somewhere... maybe a problem with the injectors? I wish I had a buddy with one so I could try swapping bits off their bike. I'm not 100% sure that it's an intermittent fault - I think it might just become more apparent that it's not running quite right under certain conditions.

Thanks for the offer of the 'money back guarantee' ECU flash :)
I'm pretty sure we'll try that at some point soon. We'll see what else we can come up with in the meantime.
 
I am running a Todd re-flashed ECU in my 2004 Breva 750. That procedure cured every fueling problem I had (there were many) and left the bike a friendly and well behaved steed. No more bucking, blubbering, hard starting, coldbloodedness, etc. Fuel economy remained in the mid 50s mpg.

Remember too, the re-flashed ECU runs with the O2 (aka "lambda") sensor connected but its signals are ignored. Thus the meddling of a dead or insane O2 sensor will not adversely affect fueling of your motor.

Saving $$$ by not buying a new O2 sensor (now or later) will mostly pay for the re-flash. The only down side is your bike is laid up while the ECU is out for re-flash.

'Geezer
 
Hi, I'm back again, this time with video!

We went on a road trip but the problem got worse after a couple of days so we pulled the plug on the rest of the trip. Two dealers have looked at it with no success now. One guy still has it so fingers crossed (but I'm not holding out much hope). I'm just hoping against hope that someone recognizes the issue and says 'Oh, my V7 did that too. It was just the flux capacitor, just replace this bit here to fix it.'

I managed to snag a video of the bike displaying the problem. If you listen you'll hear the revs stuttering while she tries to hold them at a constant rpm. Also notice that it won't idle. It was pretty much unridable at this point. But the next time I took it for a 10 minute spin two days later it was running just fine:

 
This describes the problem I have with my 2012 V7 Stone pretty closely. All good up to 3,700 miles but then started acting as described after a filling station stop. Will accelerate hard but fades on a constant throttle when trying to cruise. Replaced spark plugs - slightly better. Local specialist suggested water in the tank as he's seen several Guzzis with blocked drain lines. Tank off, drained, replaced fuel filter (plastic). No different. I think I've pinned it down to poor running when hot. When stone cold, you can drive as normal. Stop for a coffee or fuel and it bogs down really badly but eventually clears (sometimes takes 5 or 6 miles).

It had Finebau Forge FI compensators fitted at around 2,000 miles but these symptoms are the same with or without. I'm, thinking it could be the RPM detector or the lambda sensors. I'm about to go and test - will warm it up and will then disconnect the sensors. Trying to eliminate as many things as possible before taking it to a dealer (out of warranty).

While I'm here, does anyone know what the 'Module with resistance (Pull Up)' is (Guzzi manual term)? This is an odd-looking plastic-cased device that is just sitting loose under the tank. I suspect it is to monitor temp or humidity possibly?
 
If the vent canister has been removed make sure the lines that need to be blocked off (leading to the intake tracts) are blocked off and the lines that need to be open (leading to the fuel tank) are open. Also look out for a one way valve in the vent line that is one way the wrong way. It needs to let air in to the fuel tank, Guzzi has a history of installing the one way valve backwards. Personally I remove the one way valve.

How far are you from Moto International in Seattle, Washington.
Perhaps a better dealer might help.
 
Moto International is about 300 km from Vancouver. not too bad for a ride if they can get it fixed. Try Valley Yamaha (just renamed Valley Moto) in Chilliwack a visit if not already. Gore know his stuff.
 
This describes the problem I have with my 2012 V7 Stone pretty closely. All good up to 3,700 miles but then started acting as described after a filling station stop. Will accelerate hard but fades on a constant throttle when trying to cruise. Replaced spark plugs - slightly better. Local specialist suggested water in the tank as he's seen several Guzzis with blocked drain lines. Tank off, drained, replaced fuel filter (plastic). No different. I think I've pinned it down to poor running when hot. When stone cold, you can drive as normal. Stop for a coffee or fuel and it bogs down really badly but eventually clears (sometimes takes 5 or 6 miles).

It had Finebau Forge FI compensators fitted at around 2,000 miles but these symptoms are the same with or without. I'm, thinking it could be the RPM detector or the lambda sensors. I'm about to go and test - will warm it up and will then disconnect the sensors. Trying to eliminate as many things as possible before taking it to a dealer (out of warranty).

While I'm here, does anyone know what the 'Module with resistance (Pull Up)' is (Guzzi manual term)? This is an odd-looking plastic-cased device that is just sitting loose under the tank. I suspect it is to monitor temp or humidity possibly?

Oh dear, that sounds pretty similar. 2012, it must be under warranty still, no? Still a pain but at least it won't cost an arm and a leg.

My 'short' list is:
1. TPS - in the process of failing, intermittently generating erroneous output. I back-probed it and confirmed correct function but not actually while the bike is misbehaving (bike's been running properly for the past week). Moto Guzzi want $360 for a replacement TPS, plus taxes and installation etc. Yikes.
2. Lambda sensor - Curious to hear the results of your disconnection test.
3. HT leads failing - I'll have to switch them out with replacements and see if it helps.
4. Coils failing - ditto.
5. ECU failing - seems unlikely given the intermittent nature. I think sensor or HT issue seems most likely.
6. One of the two temperature sensors failing (engine/air) - The air temp showing on the dash seems reasonable so this seems like unlikely. Not sure how to eliminate engine temp sensor.
7. Dodgy connection somewhere - This will be fun to hunt down if that's what it is!
8. A few people have suggested a failing spark plug - but we replaced these with no change.

I wish I had a spare V7 in my garage so I could swap bits one at a time to find the faulty component!
 
Moto International is about 300 km from Vancouver. not too bad for a ride if they can get it fixed. Try Valley Yamaha (just renamed Valley Moto) in Chilliwack a visit if not already. Gore know his stuff.

Yeah we've been to see Gord and he's been very helpful. He didn't find a smoking gun but he's tweaked a few things and is on standby for feedback.
 
So - I disconnected the two lambda sensors when out on a test run and immediately the symptoms vanished. I then did 550 miles over a hot weekend with the bike loaded with camping gear and it ran fine the whole time. So - that may well be it. As others have mentioned, no warning lights come on with them disconnected.

Of course there are two sensors so I should try to test each one (maybe connect one at a time - might be a bit imbalanced though). As for replacement, the bike is just out of warranty as it was new in May 2012 being one of the first ones in the UK and used a dealer demonstrator. The dealer has a good reputation, however so I'll see what he says.

I think the fuel consumption is a little worse with the sensors disconnected but I was running pretty fast with full luggage. I'll try to gat a new pair.
 
Another update:
I thought I’d try to track down which sensor was playing up (unless of course both were faulty). I did 20 miles with only the left-hand sensor connected. The bike ran fine. Then 20 miles with only the right-hand sensor connected – the bike ran fine! Then I took it out with both connected again to see what happened. I’ve done 150 miles over a few days like that and all is fine. Some weird voodoo here. I had a chat with Paul Harris of Corsa Italiana (London, UK) at Guzzi rally and after suggesting dodgy plug caps or water in the tank (which he’d seen on a customer’s bike) he did say that it was possible that the sensors were coked up at some point and that a long run had cleared them. Who knows? I’ll carry on with them connected and see what happens next. I've just reconnected the Finebau compensators.
 
Hi, just caught up with your problems... I have also disconnected my lambdas. Much better. 10k miles now. I also had trouble with the NGK plug caps, needed new ones. They're apparently a bit flaky. Paul and Brian were completely hopeless at giving me any kind of after sales support on my V7R. Yes, they changed the ECU etc but in the end just had no answers, apart from various degrees of BS. Never again. Go see Baldrick 07536 116176.
 
Message to the OP- did you ever get this problem figured out? Mine has been doing the same thing, same symptoms here! Okay maybe not exactly the same, mine hasn't stalled. The stutter sounds spot on, though.

I notice it usually happens with a hot engine receiving a blast of cooler air. I am guessing at this point the ECU signals more fuel, and it feels like something just can't keep up. Then after a few good pulls it clears up. I have a brand new 2015 V7S, the problem appeared around mile 300, got worse around 500, seemed better around 800, and now back at 1100. Totally intermittent, but I think I've narrowed it down to that sudden colder intake air temp.

Hoping you solved your issue and are still around so I can check it out, too :)
 
Sorry I have been off this site for so long. Finally I took the bike to Moto Corsa, a dealer in Dorset, UK. After some testing and analysis, they replaced one of the lambda sensors and the problem vanished, Bike ran really nicely - which is good for the new owner as I have sold it and bought a Norge!
 
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