2nd CAM and TAPPET recall !!!

[rguzz]

Just taken my G8V for 12000 mile service, and guess what ? The cams and tappets are ready to be changed again, 12000 mile after original, from new, warranty replacement. At 6000 mile service, valve gaps were fine, now at 12000 they have shot up to 0.8mm, inlet and exhaust, indicating excessive wear. My dealer in the Midlands is excellent, and hopes to re-open the warranty claim, as the cam and tappet recall from new, obviously hasn't worked, still DEFECTIVE. He had 4 Grisos with exact same claim last year, all were honoured.
I'm glad my dealer didn't just wind the gap in to 0.1/0.15, and send me on my way, he's a proper mechanic, and looks after the customer.
Is this common worldwide, or not ? Can't think of reading about any double recalls, and this is my dealers 5th. I like my Griso a lot, but can't help thinking that this is not good for Guzzi sales, just go and buy a BMW boxer, that goes forever.
Any thoughts and comments invited, I'm curious.

 

[Steve S]

It would be useful to know who this dealer is for us in the UK, just in case.

 

[stromcat]

What year is your Griso?

 

[rguzz]

It was manufactured 2008, sold new April 2009. Original cam and tappet replaced at zero miles.

 

[jiltedjohn]

Heard that BMW boxers aren't without their problems

 

[GTM®]

That's great to hear that a dealer tech is looking out for you. I'm curious as to his conclusion based in your statement. Did he disassemble and find an issue, or is he basing it strictly on the valve lash?
Every brand has its problems, and in the last decade-ish, I have we'll over a half million miles on Guzzis (lots of track time as an owner of a track day school and instructor), and I have to say its been the strongest brand I've ridden. Obviously not problem free, but far better then most. If you're a passionate rider, you'll always find yourself longing for or on a Guzzi. Post again in ten years, and tell us what you're on.

 

[Penis Rotor]

No, it is not common world wide. In fact repeated failures seem to be limited to certain markets, mainly in Europe.

My observation is that most of the failures seem to occur in countries where it gets cold and wet in winter but not so cold that people take their bikes off the road for three or four months.

If you monitor the oil temperature of the 8V engine you will find that regardless of ambient temperature as long as it is dry the oil temperature will rarely drop below 100*C. In Oz, even in the coldest weather this is the case and believe me it gets cold here in winter! If you ride in the rain though oil temperature will immediately plummet to 65-70*C, well below the temperature needed to sublime the water that will invariably get into the crankcase as a by-product of combustion or simply heat cycling. This results in there being a lot of water in the oil which forms mayonnaise, especially in the top end where it will tend to drip into the cam boxes when the bike is idle.

The problem will be exacerbated by the fact that the oil cooler is not thermostatically controlled and although the cooler only cools oil for the cooling circuit in the heads while the lubrication circuit is un-cooled the simple volume of oil circulated through it, combined with heat reduction by conduction to water sprayed on the sump by the front wheel results in over cooling. Add in short trips which will discourage the oil from getting hot and very long oil change intervals and its a recipe for trouble.

My suggestion is to make sure that if you do live in a cold, damp climate and especially if you use the bike for commuting you get it out at least once a week if possible in the dry and give it a really good thrashing to get the oil temperature up and keep it up. This will give it a chance to rid the oil of the water that will build up in it. Change the oil mid winter at least and best bet, don't commute or do short trips that won't allow the oil to get hot.

Personally I would think that commuting on a 1200cc motorbike of any kind in the rain would be miserable, a Griso or Stelvio doubly so. If you want to commute on two wheels a scooter or Honda step-thru is a much better bet. Keep yer Guzzi for fun at the weekend!

Pete

PS, if the oil pump hasn't been inspected and/or replaced after the first failure and the engine cleaned thoroughly rather than just being 'Flushed' as suggested by the factory you're going to be on a hiding to nothing and failures will continue. The oil cooler should be back-flushed too after removal from the engine along with the feed lines. The oil pumps and the cooling circuit are the only parts of the engine that get un-filtered oil. Bits of ground up tappet will destroy the oil pumps and can block both the cooler an/or the banjos in the delivery lines.

 

[rguzz]

I have regularly ridden my G8V on selected fine days throughout winter, and given it a good thrashing for full heat up. Haven't used it for commuting. No mayonnaise reported on top end, all clean. Mechanic reports left side is problem, right side ok, but both sides will get new cams and tappets. Right side cam shows heavy wear, all valve gear otherwise in perfect condition. Guzzi website indicates there are now 3 cam and tappet revisions for G8V, presumably with better quality steels at each revision. So hopefully in 3 weeks I'll be back in saddle for another British summer.

 

[GuzziMoto]

If what Pete says is true (and it sounds plausible to me) then is there a way to put a thermostatic valve on the oil cooler? We would run them on our Ducatis, the valve would send oil going to the cooler straight back to the motor until temp was reached at which point it would send to oil to the cooler and back.

 

[fatal]

I always change the engine oil on all my vehicles at half the reccommended interval, a bit anal but cheap insurance. If as Pete Roper suggests the oil may not to be getting hot enough under certain useage and climatic conditions, would the use of a thinner oil over the winter period be beneficial? Perhaps something like a fully synthetic 10w40? then change out to 10w60 for the spring summer?

Rguzz what engine oil has been used in your bike?

 

[Penis Rotor]

If what Pete says is true (and it sounds plausible to me) then is there a way to put a thermostatic valve on the oil cooler? We would run them on our Ducatis, the valve would send oil going to the cooler straight back to the motor until temp was reached at which point it would send to oil to the cooler and back.

This is a work in progress for me along with fitting an easily readable oil temperature gauge. Whether this alone will be sufficient I don't know. Right at he moment though I'm getting organised for a three month tour in the USA and simply don't have the time to pursue it.

Pete

 

[rguzz]

In reply, my oil is Motorex 10w/60 fully synthetic.

 

[Andrewspain]

Hello everyone, I wonder if anyone can help. I have a 2008 Griso and the cams have been replaced twice so far. Now it has developed a horrible clunking sound on the left hand side when the engine is warming up. Not when cold or hot. And only below 2,500 rpm. Just for ten minutes or so after starting. I have spoken to someone who says this is due to "lateral" movement in the camshaft. My questions are:
1) Why is this happening? (It didn't happen before)
2) Is there anything I can do to stop this?
3) Is this damaging the engine?

Thanks.

 

[rguzz]

Still waiting for parts. Apparently it needs new cams, tappets, and cam holders (bosses), and goodness knows what else. Defective recall parts were fitted from new (zero miles), therefore, out of date warranty does not apply, and Guzzi are liable. Trouble getting all parts from Italian office, due to general fukwit mentality.
Interesting listening to a couple of long time Guzzi mechanics off the record, that Guzzi have got the 8V cylinder head design WRONG WRONG WRONG. They should have copied off BMW, like they did exactly for the Carc. Hopefully the new parts refit will cure the problem.
But I'll be dammed if short journeys or winter riding could be held as mitigating factors for failure.
On return of bike, cylinder heads will be monitored. A third failure will result in a claim to Guzzi for full REFUND of initial cost of machine. A class action with other disenfranchised 8V owners may happen also.
I'm not going to pussyfoot around any more. I just want a decent working machine, for the money I paid.
If this bike were a Toyota, they would be falling over themselves to help the customer, thats why Toyota sales are booming after their disastrous recall affair 2 years ago. But NO, as a Guzzi owner we are left scrabbling about trying to look after our own affairs, seeking a fair deal form Guzzi.
A word of warning for Guzzi, " Get your house in order, or face a public expose, no sales, shutdown."

 

[john zibell]

Still waiting for parts. Apparently it needs new cams, tappets, and cam holders (bosses), and goodness knows what else. Defective recall parts were fitted from new (zero miles), therefore, out of date warranty does not apply, and Guzzi are liable. Trouble getting all parts from Italian office, due to general fukwit mentality.
Interesting listening to a couple of long time Guzzi mechanics off the record, that Guzzi have got the 8V cylinder head design WRONG WRONG WRONG. They should have copied off BMW, like they did exactly for the Carc. Hopefully the new parts refit will cure the problem.
But I'll be dammed if short journeys or winter riding could be held as mitigating factors for failure.
On return of bike, cylinder heads will be monitored. A third failure will result in a claim to Guzzi for full REFUND of initial cost of machine. A class action with other disenfranchised 8V owners may happen also.
I'm not going to pussyfoot around any more. I just want a decent working machine, for the money I paid.
If this bike were a Toyota, they would be falling over themselves to help the customer, thats why Toyota sales are booming after their disastrous recall affair 2 years ago. But NO, as a Guzzi owner we are left scrabbling about trying to look after our own affairs, seeking a fair deal form Guzzi.
A word of warning for Guzzi, " Get your house in order, or face a public expose, no sales, shutdown."

Apparently your Guzzi mechanics have their heads in their personal air raid shelter. The BMW rear end is not a reactive rear drive like the Guzzi CARC and it has a high bearing failure rate. The Guzzi CARC is darn near bullet proof if you keep water out of it. Also thanks to British mechanics and weather, the high cam failure appear to only be in the UK and Europe.

 

[rguzz]

Ok, I admit there are inaccuracies in my message.
But I'm still mad as hell to be having a 2nd head refit after 12000 miles. If the UK/European weather is not conducive to the bike then is a thinner oil recommended ?? Or shall I move house to a hot country, so the oil may be preheated before the engine is started ?? Or should legislation be passed in Parliament to prevent the sale of motorbikes, susceptible to head wear, in cooler climates ??
Is there a newer high flow oil pump ?? Do the oil ways/galleries need to bigger, to enable more oil to slosh around ??
I love my G8V, with the PCV, and other Guzzitech bits and bobs. It looks, performs, and sounds great. But when I realise the heads are wearing rapidly, it takes the edge off my enjoyment.
I'll sit through my 2nd refit, when it finally occurs, but if this goes tits-up in 10,000 mile, then I'm done, I'll be after retribution, restitution, which I'll pursue.

 

[Pascal]

LOL, I love posts like these. :roll: :roll:
Like the UK makes products worth a crap anyway right?
You should be used to stuff like this since you live there, no?
I'd sue companies like Range Rover long before I'd sue Guzzi.
Talk about an expensive piece of junk that doesn't even come with Astroglide.
And if you go through with your actions against MG, let us know how that worked out for you. :whistle:

If I was in your shoes I'd be pissed too but not necessarily at the Brand.
When you get your bike back, trade it in right away for a 2013 at a real dealership if there is one in the UK.
Get that monkey off your back.

 

[lucky phil]

Me.....id just make up a simple and quicky attatchable blanking cover for the oil cooler for the winter and cold wet days.
An inline thermostat would be the ultimate answer.The bulk oil temp should never be below 100 deg C
in an engine at full operating temperature for the reasons explained by Peter.
As for the thinner oil.......well I'm the guy that runs his bike on a 0-40w oil and I personally think a 10-60 is a joke despite what Guzzi says. Of course its got to be a full group 4 Synthetic and yes I'm aware of the 8 valve cooling galleries but its my opinion what you gain in extra thermal carrying capacity over a 40 weight you loose in reduced flow through those small galleries. In other words I value the higher flow of the 40w over the increased thermal carring capacity of the 60w oil.
But thats just me.
Ciao

 

[Niko]

Actually I was thinking the same about the 0W-40. I am in California and weather here is not that cool even in the winter, but I was planning to alternate between the 10W-60 for summer use and the 0W-40 for the winter. There is Mobile 1 0W-40 full synthetic that is the recommended oil for many EU cars including Mercedes diesel and I run it in my diesel Benz engine with 10K miles change intervals for 6oK miles now with no problems. I also agree that passage is the most important feature especially when the engine is cold on start ups and that's the time every engine suffers the most ware. Plus if an oil is design to sustain the shear pressure of a diesel engine it is good enough for any engine. So ya I completely agree with lucky phil and his logic regarding the oil used.

 

[TonyG]

I don't buy the crap UK mechanics and weather excuse. We have the same ratio of crap mechanics to good ones as any other country. Some crap ones may have contributed to some failures, but very reputable dealers have also had the problems. As for short runs in cold weather, probably doesn't do any motor any good but they don't all eat their cams in 10,000 miles or less. If you are lucky enough to not have any problems great ! No point pretending it doesn't exist though or berating people for being concerned about it.

Hopefully, when the original work was done the replacement tappets were soft ones again, and this time you'll get the mythical 3rd tappet version. I've got a 2011 Griso and love it, but this issues is a cloud over ownership and hasn't really been resolved, though I believe Piaggio are being helpful in the UK.

Good luck with it, are you a member of the UK club ? This gets debated there as well.