8V Failure info.

[guzzitakecare]

Hello everybody,

I try to read some of your posts. My english is just a little poor but I understand some things. Here is some informations from France.

After the 2009 recall campaign nothing has changed...

For the moment I have strictly listed 9 8V failures : 3 Stelvio, 3 Griso, 2 1200 Sport and 1 Norge. There is others but I have not the serial numbers.

One of these motorcycles has been 4 times opened (1 for left side, 1 for right side, 2 for both sides) and the second one : 5 times ! Both are Griso 1200 8V

About my Stelvio (MY08 - not concerned by the 2009 recall campaign) the problem came at 30.000 km (about 19.000 miles) left side and obviously out of warranty. Oil was 10W60 since 10.000 km (6.200 miles).

My dealer succes taking parts on warranty for both sides (not the working time, for the moment...).He says too that a lot of changes have been made on lubrication holes. But I don't see it for the moment. I think you know well what I speak about.
Cover will be change too. What a mess !

Just for fun : my Stelvio is off since october 2011... And we are waiting for the parts with a very huge zen attitude !

This was just for saying you're not alone !

One question : has the oil pump been changed for the 8V ? Reference has changed but sometimes references change just because of a new manufacturer...

Read you soon and sorry for my "kitchen's english and/or redundant post

Sergio @ from the "froggy" Guzzitek

 

[Mi_ka]

Is the place where you live & ride very moisty?
Do you ride often in the rain?
The bikes you know had trouble do they happen to be used in similar conditions?
Do you know if the problem appeared after starting the engine in cold conditions or after a long hot ride?

Myself, I strongly think there may be a connection to condensation creating mayonaise out of the oil like mentioned here: https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/163/8186.html#p61924 as the cause of these problems: The engine may start up with mayonaise from the cover heads providing bad lubrication for the first seconds after the engine is started.

Pete says no problems Down Under in conditions I suppose much-much drier at the land of Oz.

Pleas write as much data about the bikes that had the problems as you can.

By the way, great avatar! :woohoo:

 

[Penis Rotor]

Still happening eh? OK, do you have build dates for these machines?

FWIW I live in an area of Oz that is very cold in winter. None of my local customers have had failures. although usually dry this year has been very wet. Still no problems.

I'd happily examine the problem further IF IT EVER APPEARS IN MY WORKSHOP but it hasn't!!!!! Nor does it seem to be appearing on bikes in the USA, at least it ain't being reported. so what's the problem? They only sell shitters in Europe? Or perhaps they aren't being PD'd and serviced properly?????

Pete

 

[Mi_ka]

FWIW I live in an area of Oz that is very cold in winter. None of my local customers have had failures. although usually dry this year has been very wet. Still no problems.

Feck!!!
And I thought I nailed something here! :dry:

 

[kmac33]

Very, very late to this thread topic discussion, but after reading through all 31 pages, I did not see a reference to zinc levels in the oils used in the failed motors. I did EXTENSIVE research on this topic to ensure the longevity of my "flat tappet" Fiat motor, post rebuild. Decided it was necessary to do the research after reading a couple of horror stories on one of the Fiat forums from guys with very early, premature rebuilt engine failures. In both cases the failures were traced back to the "reduced zinc" motor oils that now permeate the market. Do just a little research and you'll find that zinc levels vary greatly. You will even find different levels in the "same" brand, type and viscosity of an oil that are sold in different parts of the world. The countries with the more stringent emissions requirements will get the lower zinc level oils.
To add to the issue, if you don't do the research, you can buy a "premium oil" that may have less than ideal zinc levels for valve tappet health.
For my Fiat (and for my Guzzi too), I'm not taking any chances and only use higher zinc level oils. For the Fiat (and am planning to on the Guzzi as well) I also used Redline "break-in" additive - which is just a zinc booster.

Not sure if this could be a possible culprit for these failures, but I've seen it in the "car world" and figured I'd at least throw the possibility out there.

 

[draidt]

Very, very late to this thread topic discussion, but after reading through all 31 pages, I did not see a reference to zinc levels in the oils used in the failed motors. I did EXTENSIVE research on this topic to ensure the longevity of my "flat tappet" Fiat motor, post rebuild. Decided it was necessary to do the research after reading a couple of horror stories on one of the Fiat forums from guys with very early, premature rebuilt engine failures. In both cases the failures were traced back to the "reduced zinc" motor oils that now permeate the market. Do just a little research and you'll find that zinc levels vary greatly. You will even find different levels in the "same" brand, type and viscosity of an oil that are sold in different parts of the world. The countries with the more stringent emissions requirements will get the lower zinc level oils.
To add to the issue, if you don't do the research, you can buy a "premium oil" that may have less than ideal zinc levels for valve tappet health.
For my Fiat (and for my Guzzi too), I'm not taking any chances and only use higher zinc level oils. For the Fiat (and am planning to on the Guzzi as well) I also used Redline "break-in" additive - which is just a zinc booster.

Not sure if this could be a possible culprit for these failures, but I've seen it in the "car world" and figured I'd at least throw the possibility out there.

Kevin

Although Zinc ( ZZDP ) level is important in the longevity of a flat tappet motor and the recommended oil Agip 4T syn 10w60 has additives in a higher level then most oils there is some thing other then that going on ( BTW I do add add a Zinc additive to both my Guzzis ) Pete is correct in pointing out that the MAJORITY of failures and multiple failures have occurred in GB, France and Spain and I empathize the MAJORITY, yes there have been failures on very few of the early 8V in the US. There is enough of them in the US in daily use now and some racking up substantial mileage that if a fundamental flaw in the 8V is present that we would know about it. The US while huge in size has a very tight knit community of Guzzi enthusiasts who will via forums and word of mouth let it be known if 8V's were going belly up all over the place. Just not happening, There are several excellent and active dealers on line who would not hesitate to blow the proverbial whistle again not happening.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Dropped in for a chat at Haywards in Cambridge in the UK yesterday and picked up some useful and interesting info. These blokes are very switched on and were more than willing to share their experiences so I learnt a fair bit even through a brief chat which allowed me to clarify and discard some of the speculation about failures. Having said that it also didn't allow me to make any groubd breaking 'Come to Jesus' type discoveries about the why's and wherefores.

You'll have to bear with me as I can't write a treatise on it right now but let it be said that some of what has been posted before about the roller lifters already having made an appearance in their workshop is wrong. They haven't seen any such product.

Secondly, for those who might still be worrying they have not seen a single failure of any ype on the new 2-O2 sensor bikes. These machines also, according to part #'s, Also seem to share almost no common components to the earlier engines. That may of course not be relevent as part #'s sometimes change with suppliers or simply between year models bt apparently everything down to and including the case and crank have different numbers. It seems hat the only common parts are something like the pistons!

It also seems that the warranty system may be partly resonsible for some of the repeated failures in Europe. They also have found, (Because they obviously THINK and do the job right!) that on every engine that has had the cams go tits the oil pump needed replacement. Funny that. What havwe I been saying since 2008?????

Pete.

PS. More when I have time.

 

[Mi_ka]

(...preparing popcorn! Sometime since I read an interesting analysis)
(Hmm, no rollers, that would be a nice addition or not?)

 

[Penis Rotor]

One thing that did come to light which might go a way towards explaining the continuing failures in the EU is differences in the warranty system. It seems that in the UK at least when a warranty claim is submitted the parts are picked 'automatically', presumably by some form of VIN recognition system and the parts are sent out based on that. In Oz it is up to us, the service agents, to check the parts lists and pick the parts. If there is a supercession we should notice it. Compatibiility and interchangeability is noted in the parts system so we can ensure WE choose the latest updates that are compatible with the machine we are working on. It seems that in the UK at least this isn't the case. Could this be the reason that Katacrac (Sp.) and others have had problems with repeated and/or multiple failures? I don't know. But it certainly begs the question.

Another thing is the revised valve clearances with later motors. They have opened them up by 2 thou, (From memory.). Now while I am a bit gun-shy of doing this on my bike because a.) it works flawlessly,even in extreme heat and b.) the cam rampings are quite short and I fear by-passing them if I open them up too much, it is possible that later cams may have different rampings, (The timing hasn't changed up until the Norge 8V.) perhaps introduced at the same time as the shimmed cams, (Which incidentally we seem to have got earlier in Oz than they got in the UK??). I have been told that I'm an idiot because 'Obviously' the cam failures are down to valve recession closing up the clearances and I'm just to stupid to know this. Unfortunately this was one of the first things that crossed my mind so I have checked the valves on every head I've had off, low or higher miles. I think this pic says all you need to know. It's out of a 20,000Km machine.

It ain't valve recession!!!!

So I'm still in the dark but as time goes on I think I'm finding what *may* be contributory factors and I'm certainly finding out what it 'isn't'!!!!!! :lol:

Pete

 

[john zibell]

Pete,

Thanks for the research. Please keep up the good work.

 

[guzzicrazy]

for your info......

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... -93.html#6

 

[Penis Rotor]

Which I'm sure is very interesting. If you are fluent in German. I'm not so perhaps someone could translate!?

Pete

 

[ferdi]

for your info......

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... -93.html#6

Pete,
what I can tell you - the guys in UK are wrong and EU 2011 models share the same affected parts as models 2009 and 2010.
http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... 192-0.html. I think Paul Daytona is also user in this forum.
My Stelvio is EU model 2011 (2 O2 sensors), has 6182 km and shows already signs of "extreme abrasion" for this age.
Maybe they just had not open a 2011 model. Maybe they are too new to have enough kilometers on speedo.

You can find pictures in above link of Razyboard, my nick is the same, but language is different :mrgreen: .
But pictures are not language dependable.
My article is the one from "Erstellt am 29.02.2012 - 17:46" with large pictures.
I have already spoken with my dealer (Austrian importer) - they had already other 8V engies fail also.

By the way, also in Europe, at least in Austria and Germany, they handle guarantee problems the same way as in your part of the world. Always the neweset versions of parts are used in such cases.

There are rumors in french guzzi-forum, that new parts are in real model 2012 engines. But as I and other do not speek french and google translation is quite bad we really cannot confirm that.

 

[Penis Rotor]

all I am doing is passing on information. I didn't say that I'd been told that the 2011 bikes were different. simply that they had seen no problems with the 2-O2 engines which are, I believe, all the 2012 plated ones. There are a lot of part # supercessions as well, mostly listed as going into production in November and December of '11.

I am still perplexed as to why some are failing and some aren't? As I've said repeatedly i've had ZERO failures!!!!

Pete

 

[Mi_ka]

Pete, google provides decent translation from german to english (still laughing with the german to greek results :silly: )
http://translate.google.com/transla...appern-stelvioforum-1988046-6096528-93.html#6

for your info......

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethr ... -93.html#6

Cannot help myself but think again of water related bad lubrication or lubrication starvation when the engine starts up but Phang has mentioned earlier that the cam lobes pick up oil from a pool holding some as they rotate so this cannot be true for the tappet problems.

http://www.razyboard.com/system/morethread-stelvio-nockewelle-teilenummer-liste-stelvioforum-1988046-6123192-0.html

So, everything built after May-Jun 2011 has the newest parts - rollers?

 

[guzzitakecare]

There are rumors in french guzzi-forum, that new parts are in real model 2012 engines. But as I and other do not speek french and google translation is quite bad we really cannot confirm that.

Hi everybody,

May be you are speeking about a "troll" parts list with "roller lifters" that you can see here http://www.guzzitek.org/i/pl_i/Stelvio1200_8V_Std-NTX_2011_PL(I).pdf on page 69.

We know nothing serious about these models (Paul, Pete ?) but what is sure is that the lastest published parts-list with "common" tappets are dated 20 februray 2012 (pdf property) !!!

About "mayonnaise" (I didn't know you use this word too !) the french 8V motors have not this problem at all. By the way my Calif 1100 IE (RIP - 125.000 km) and my Breva 750 (saled - 40.000 km) had no more mayonnaise from the moment I use "good" synthetic motor oil. Nothing to do with rain or anything else ! And I ride under big thunderstorms...

Anything else : Pete speaks about oil pump change... It could be very interesting having more information... But still the same problem : why Europe and why not all 8V motors ?

Sergio

 

[Mi_ka]

May be you are speeking about a "troll" parts list with "roller lifters" that you can see here http://www.guzzitek.org/i/pl_i/Stelvio1200_8V_Std-NTX_2011_PL(I).pdf on page 69.

Troll? Are you impliyning this parts list is not genuine/valid?
I see the roller parts 1 & 2 at pages 69-70-71-72.

Nothing to do with rain or anything else ! And I ride under big thunderstorms...
...
But still the same problem : why Europe and why not all 8V motors ?

Not talking about rain or water insertion in the oil but short rides that do not warm up the engine enough for water condensation to steam away.
So repeated starting conditions of mayonaise slowly provoking little accumulating damage over many days.

Do you know of how the damage came up to the broken bikes?
Suddenly or slowly?
After long rides or repeated short trips?
With riders thrashing the bikes or when mildly ridden?

 

[8 valve eagle]

Hi Folks
Its my first post so not quite sure of protocol .I have been looking in at this topic for a while. I was very concerned when I saw Pete Ropers comments regarding his conversation with Haywards of cambridge as when the cam failed on my 2010 NTX A8 Series motor in August 2011 it was Haywards who did the warranty work. Pete states'' that on every engine that the cams go tits up the oil pump needed replacement '' I am sorry but pete has been miss informed. I emailed Ed the workshop manage at Haywards yesterday his reply to my email was this
''Hi keith
Every cam job we have carried out the oil pump has been striped and checked.
If deemed necessary then the pump has been replaced, as your cams had worn a small amount compared to most this protocol was followed and the pump was checked and was deemed in fine working order.
Each bike has a pressure test carried out on it after the cams have been replaced and it is quite obvious if the pump is working correctly and efficently.
We would not release your bike if we were not 100% happy with the complete engine performance and all components.''
Obviously some cams have failed due to faulty oil pumps but not in all cases .I noticed my engine started to run rough within a few hundred miles of it being serviced and got Haywards to collect it where they found the cams starting to fail
Regards keith

 

[guzzitakecare]

Troll? Are you impliyning this parts list is not genuine/valid?
I see the roller parts 1 & 2 at pages 69-70-71-72.

Just one answer : why the last (and first) 2012 Stelvio parts list is different from the last 2011 Stelvio Parts list ?
For the moment, no more information and no answer from Guzzi France

Not talking about rain or water insertion in the oil but short rides that do not warm up the engine enough for water condensation to steam away.
So repeated starting conditions of mayonaise slowly provoking little accumulating damage over many days.

I never ride short. Speaking about me I ride quickly but not trashy, about 5000 rpm regularly, no highway (or the minimum time : I hate highways, tolls and expensive gasoline...) going gently from 2000 to 5000/5500 rpm.

Just 2 times at high rpm (see my avatar...) during italian bike show in France (6x20' sessions) but never over 8000 rpm with the Stelvio. Unfortunatly the tappet problem came later and suddenly after only 40 km (at 30°C ext. temp...) and 120 km/h on national road : leaving home with a no noisy motor and 40km later I rode a "sew-machine"...

Do you know of how the damage came up to the broken bikes?
Suddenly or slowly?
After long rides or repeated short trips?
With riders thrashing the bikes or when mildly ridden?

Waooo ! For the moment no answer. But I'm sure everybody ride gently !!!

Sergio

PS : Sorry if double posted...

 

[Mi_ka]

Thanks for the info !

Unfortunatly the tappet problem came later and suddenly after only 40 km (at 30°C ext. temp...) and 120 km/h on national road : leaving home with a no noisy motor and 40km later I rode a "sew-machine"...

So, sudden damage for you under ideal (Summer?) weather while "8 valve eagle" in the UK noticed wrong sound and caught the damage before it fully manifested itself, so it seems slow developing damage for him.
No differentiating clues here...

I never ride short.

Given this also, what you say certainly kills any idea of mine about condensation related wear so no point for Pete to slap me with a big fish in the face.

Speaking about me I ride quickly but not trashy, about 5000 rpm regularly, no highway (or the minimum time : I hate highways, tolls and expensive gasoline...) going gently from 2000 to 5000/5500 rpm.
Just 2 times at high rpm (see my avatar...) during italian bike show in France (6x20' sessions) but never over 8000 rpm with the Stelvio.

So no abusing that could be causing the problem, as Pete also has been reporting for long now.

Sergio, do you remember if any heavy cornering was done in the ride the damage occured?
High G-forces messing up oill suction? Or did you by any chance had too much oil in the sump that could be causing oil foam to develop and along with high G forces this caused oil starvation?
Pete, is this a feasible theory?
Owners/dealers having the bikes over filled with oil, and so having oil foam developing and causing starvation?
What da f@ck, there can't be Aliens abducting good tappets and replacing them with bad ones.
And too many problems happening to be ignorant dealer alone related.