Amal carbs on 74 Eldorado

[tomatweedo]

Hello, I'm new to this forum, would like some opinions about reasons to keep leaky old Amals on this
bike, made during the workers' strike, or find a good pair of Dell'Ortos with manifold as good salvage
pieces. Is the fact that the Amals are factory-original worth anything to a prospective buyer ?
Or would gasoline dripping onto the starter make a buyer kinda nervous ?
Thanks fro any input, or where to go to find a discussion of these Strike Bikes.
tomatweedo

 

[GTM®]

Perhaps Pete Roper will chime in on this... otherwise, you can catch up with many loop-ers here; http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/Loopframe_Guzzi/ - but do promise to come back and visit often.

 

[john zibell]

If you want the bike to run well, ditch the Amals and put on DelOrtos. Whether you decide to keep them or not, you will find a bunch of loop information here as well http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/index.htm Greg has several entries on Amals also.

 

[tomatweedo]

Hello again, and thank you, Todd and John for your replies. Here's a bit more background to
help you decide (and to save me time poking through other e-mail lists, if possible).
I've had various bikes over 35 years, including Amal-equipped Triumphs. The one that
I really, really wish I hadn't let slip away (remembeer that feeling ??) was a '74 Trident 750,
the Triumph triple. It had triple everything, Amal carbs, coils, breaker points, and the last-
mentioned were probably the death of too many of them, if one set of points would be set
or wear too close, the other two cylinders could rapidly work at blasting the top of the third
piston into pellets of molten aluminum...in other words, modern electronic ignition from the
factory would have made them legendary for reasons other than today's reputation. I have
a '72 Trident now, a basket case w/6000 miles total, and the FIRST thing I bought for it is
the Lucas/Rita electronic ignition setup...cheap insurance and much lower maintenance.
My '74 Trident, with the electronic ignition upgrade, along with a hydraulic clutch operation
that's also available, would make it a very modern and dependable bike. All of this is getting
to the essential question of what I should do with the '74 Eldorado. Over the years, there
are bound to be improvements that are generally accepted as "the way to go" for a more
dependable modern ride. If the Dell'Orto carbs trump the Amals no matter what was installed
at the factory, then I'll go with the Dell'Ortos and keep the old Amals as rebuildable cores in
case the next buyer is an originality freak...or sell them off at an English bike swap meet.
The distributor ignition breaker points seem to be no trouble on the Eldorado, I can work
with them just fine.
So the short version of this question is, What are the 3 or 4 best upgrades that are looked
for among experienced riders and collectors of this vintage of big Moto Guzzis ?
Thanks for your patience and seerious consideration,
tomatweedo

 

[Chris R]

I'd add to your trident modifications to fit some Carillos. The aluminum conrods may be great for drag racing but I have no idea why they fit them to a street bike. I know this from a sad secondhand experience.

I think the great thing about guzzi's is that they lend themselves to modification and originality is not really an issue as no one - even the factory- know what was original.

In my opinion:

- Fit Nikasils/Gilardonis if and when available - they have been in short supply of late. You can then forget about rings and pistons for 100-150K. This is the single best mod to older guzzis.
- Fit 36mm carbs with the lightest throttle springs available. It will make appreciably more power.
- Lighten the flywheel - this depends on how you ride and what you want but I personally think you can't lighten it enough and fit the latter big spline hub and clutch. However an Eldo is not really a sporty ride.
- Fit a dyna and coils. The points are a pain to adjust and cannot be adjusted accurately for both cylinders. The coils are now 35+ years old and dry out. Best to just replace them with the 5 ohm dynas.
- Remove the valves before the breather box and fit a PCV valve after the box to atmosphere. This will stop the dreaded mayonnaise and engine dumping oil out the breather.
- Fit an electronic regulator to the bosch charging system and the alternator cover spacer. Indeed Euro do a rotor, rectfier and regulator for 140$. Re-wire as Guzzi used about three times the necessary amount of wire and had weird ideas about grounding things, the wire at the steering head is by now work hardened and may not be reliable.
- THe original Bosch starter is probably ok with the eldo's compression and is well built and rebuildable. The valeo is more powerful, much lighter and more fragile and harder to fix. There is now a mitsubishi that is supposed to be bullet proof but is kind of expensive. Run power directly from the battery through the start relay instead of via the power switch.

You won't find huge power gains in cams just where the power comes in and the good ones (megacycle) are expensive. I have noticed that the followers are prone to pitting - check and replace as needed.

I would not fit a cam gear drive- it is hit or miss from a reliability stand point and produces no measurable increase in power. The aftermarket chain tensioner is cheap and works fine for a very long time.

My experience with Amals is pretty much what John said and that they wear out really fast - even the MK2 versions. With almost all carbs it usually amounts to swings and roundabouts - they work better at some throttle openings and worse at others. I have never found a carb that is vastly superior to everything else.

Usually it boils down to what you are used to and know how to tune.

Read the dellorto tuning manual which is available on line - it is quite instructive.

Ta,

Chris R

 

[tomatweedo]

Thank you Chris R, that's just the sort of information I've been looking for;

I really appreciate the time you took to pass along all of that experience.
I wasn't really looking to buy another old bike but while on my drive to work
a couple years ago saw this bike sitting in front of a house with a For Sale
sign on it and at first sight could not identify it - that's how rare Guzzis are
in the Dayton, Ohio area, compared to other makes. I doubled back and
took a good look and called the owner and found a "distress" sale due to
divorce, D.U.I. and the resulting s**tload of legal fees. It even came with
a ratty old Velorex side-car which I sold off at the next local Walneck's
swap meet. I soon found that I had an Eldo with a 750 engine (gear drive cam)
that had a front plate cracked, badly welded, and cracked again, that was
oiling the generator drive belt and marking its parking territory dog-style.
Removing crank-pulley involved sawing slot in crank-pulley nut with Dreml,
fabricating tool#12905300 pulley hub holder, and enlisting strong healthy
neighbor (H-D rider sympathetic with V-twins) with piece of gas-pipe to
hold pulley hub while I worked opposite with breaker bar to crack loose nut.
Salvage yard in Calif that gave me good front engine plate said that the
above nut should only be on there with 80 to 100 lbs torque as hub is
keyed and tapered but I'm afraid to guess how much it took to loosen
that (slotted, weakened) nut...2 x 250lb geezers x 3ft gas-pipe each
going in opposite directions !! It finally let loose with a CRACK and we
didn't hurt a thing or bloody a knuckle or scratch the gas tank.
Thanks a lot, D.P.O. (distinguished previous owner)...
And thanks a lot to you-all for letting me rant like this, sorry.
Best regards, tomatweedo

 

[Chris R]

If it has cam gear and a genny either Guzzi used up some very very old stock or an older engine was fitted.

The OEM cam gear is reliable so no problems there.

A modern alternator can also be fitted where the genny goes - this is actually an advantage as the later engine used an underpowered Bosch crank driven alternator

I suspect that it does not have an oil filter? They can be retrofitted with some bother. If you change your oil frequently this is not a huge problem.

Do a search on 'This Old Tractor' - Greg Bender's fantastic site. There is a wealth of info there

 

[john zibell]

The 1972 Eldorado has a gear driven cam, no chain so you could still have an 850 engine. Also the Dyna won't be of any use as the distributor has only one set of points. The 1973 Eldo was the first year to use a cam chain, but I believe the older cam gears could be retro fitted. As to updating to a filter type sump, I don't think it is worth the effort as modifications to the block are required.

 

[tomatweedo]

Thanks again, Chris R and John Z,
If this is any help, the info on the bike itself says Serial # 060204
and the engine shows # 22432. It is titled as a '74 Eldorado 850

Does this look right to you guys ?
Tomatweedo

 

[john zibell]

Thanks again, Chris R and John Z,
If this is any help, the info on the bike itself says Serial # 060204
and the engine shows # 22432. It is titled as a '74 Eldorado 850

Does this look right to you guys ?
Tomatweedo

Back in that era, frame numbers and engine numbers match from the factory. You have definitely had an older engine put in the frame. Just how old I can't tell from the serial number. Someone on the forum may be able to tell you. Or e-mail Piaggio, they should be able to tell you when the engine was produced.

 

[Amboman]

Thanks again, Chris R and John Z,
If this is any help, the info on the bike itself says Serial # 060204
and the engine shows # 22432. It is titled as a '74 Eldorado 850

Does this look right to you guys ?
Tomatweedo

Numbers usually match from the factory on all but the V700s.

Check out the Loop List here: http://thisoldtractor.com/gtbender/loop ... p_list.php . 22432 is an Ambassador engine case, probably February '71. 60204 likely has a build date of June or July of '73, so it's titled correctly.

If you have Amals, then it should have a four-leading-shoe front brake as well.

 

[tomatweedo]

Hello Amboman, and Thanks for the good info.
An Ambassador engine from 1971 would most likely be a 750, correct ?
Possibly a bit more cc's if rebuilt, right ?

Yes, it has the 4LS brake, biggest drum brake I ever saw on any bike,
and at some time in its past was a sidecar rig. It looks just about like
your photo! I like my bike same as my woman -- long, lean, stripped-down
and hot to trot ! :roll:

Reminds me of my favorite song by The Cramps : You Got Good Taste !

Now, I really must be off...
Tomatweedo

 

[Amboman]

Hello Amboman, and Thanks for the good info.
An Ambassador engine from 1971 would most likely be a 750, correct ?
Possibly a bit more cc's if rebuilt, right ?

Yes, it has the 4LS brake, biggest drum brake I ever saw on any bike,
and at some time in its past was a sidecar rig. It looks just about like
your photo! I like my bike same as my woman -- long, lean, stripped-down
and hot to trot ! :roll:

Reminds me of my favorite song by The Cramps : You Got Good Taste !

Now, I really must be off...
Tomatweedo

Yes, Ambassador is 757cc originally. It's possible that someone could have put the 850 crank and cylinders into/onto the 750 case, but I doubt it. Never know though - it would be worth pulling the heads to see if the pistons are domed (750) or not (850).

 

[nfn03398]

A 750cc engine with a 22xxx engine number would belong to a '71 Ambassador, as evidenced by the Loop List on Greg Bender's website. As John Zibell accurately pointed out, frame and engine numbers matched, especially because the serial numbers of the frames weren't struck into the steel, but rather embossed on the metal vehicle I.D. tag on the steering head that denoted month and year of manufacture, as well as model year of the bike in question. #60204 would appear to be a late '73. My twin '73s are #58309 and #58324, manufactured 13 units apart in Spring of '73, and #60660 (my '74 disc brake civilian Eldo) was manufactured in December of '73 and correctly titled as a '74. The 5-speed tranny and beefier final drive make the Eldo a bit more desirable than the Ambo for some of us, but once you've seen Greg Bender's Ambo (www.thisoldtractor.com/gtbender) , or some of Moe Moore's handiwork (www.cyclegarden.com), you probably won't mind which model you end up with. You can always upgrade to an 850cc engine, even if it comes from a 850-T bike. Antietam Cycle (http://antietamclassiccycle.com) has converted one or more of those engines to serve loopframe bikes (Ambo/Eldo/V700), and Charlie Mullendore's completed projects are nothing short of impressive, to say the least.

 

[nfn03398]

In re-reading the other posts to this thread, I realize that I re-visited things that were said before. Apologies for wasting time and space here. I'm obviously a moron.