APSB 0015 error

[iainw]

2005 Breva 1100, new battery last October.

Rode the bike on Friday, no issues.
Bike started this morning but had the service light lit, which isn't odd, when I turn the ignition on sometimes as the Datatool alarm causes it. Left it ticking over for a minute whilst I put my helmet and gloves on and the service light was still on, strange,it usually goes off when the engine starts. So I switched it off and tried to start again but no joy. It displayed the flat battery symptoms of the 'clunk'. So I switched it off again, then stragely the clocks swung their needles and APSB 0015 was displayed for a few seconds on the blank clocks, all with the ignition off. Switched it on again, same result, displays the error after the ignition is off and the clocks swing. All the displays have been reset, date time etc.

Checked the diags, no ECU errors, only DSB 05 and 07 showing (M). Battery terminals are clean and tight.

I've had a flat battery before and I'm pretty sure what's drained it this time, but I've not seen this error, does anyone know what it means?

APSB 0015

It's on charge now, we'll see what happens in a few hours.
Thanks,
Iain

 

[iainw]

Well it's fully charged, showing 14v across the battery and 12.8 on the dash at the ECU. Still goes clunk and no start.

Any ideas on where to start?

Thanks,
Iain

 

[kiwi dave]

Have you performed the starter relay bypass, well documented on this forum?

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/4908.html

You can test to see whether this modification will help. When the start attempt is made, and the clunk is heard, temporary touch a connection from the the positive of the battery to the top of fuse B (2nd one from the hinge of the fuses lid). If the motor turns over, you will definitely benefit from the modification.

 

[iainw]

Have you performed the starter relay bypass, well documented on this forum?

https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/160/4908.html

You can test to see whether this modification will help. When the start attempt is made, and the clunk is heard, temporary touch a connection from the the positive of the battery to the top of fuse B (2nd one from the hinge of the fuses lid). If the motor turns over, you will definitely benefit from the modification.

Thanks, yes I have. It's me that gets a quote in the initial post from Todd.
The symptoms are the same but I have also had the error.

 

[kiwi dave]

I'd whip the starter motor off, and see if it runs connected directly to the battery. Taking it off may also relieve any jamming that might have occurred.

If this doesn't reveal the problem, I'd have to suspect the battery itself. What does the battery voltage show when the start is attempted?

 

[ghezzi]

Have battery checked for CCA (Cold Cranking Amps), should be minimum of 270.

Without which it has no grunt/torque to turn motor over, regardless of voltage reading.

 

[Penis Rotor]

that code appears when the system looses all or most power. Its the same as disconnecting the battery. Before anything else I'd be checking the earth mount at the starter motor cover mounting 'Thingy' for cleanliness and tightness along with cleaning the terminals and cables at the battery end.

Load test the battery though. If it shows up as bad? Time for a new one. This doesn't tome sound like the well doccumented 'Click-no start' issue.

Pete

 

[iainw]

I managed to spend a bit of time on it this evening but didn't progress much.
All the terminals at the battery are clean and tight.
Good clean tight earth at the starter.
My wire fix to the relay is still a good conection so it's not the classic failure.
It still wouldn't start from a fully charged battery, though it did drop to about 8 volts.

Pete, thanks for the info on the code.

I'm puzzled as to why it had enough battery umph to start it, it still shows the red triangle warning when it's running. Then one press of the starter and it's displays an error that says the battery is dead. Within less than two minutes it's enough then nothing! Would a jammed starter cause that? ... and after being on charge for a day it won't start it now, has it killed the battery?

I'll try a jump start from the car, failing that I'll pull the starter off and test that from the car battery.

 

[ghezzi]

Mate, you've got a dropped cell in the battery, 99.9% guaranteed. Nothing will recover it, not charging nor jump starting and riding long distance.

Basically two plates inside have warped, collapsed or sulphated sufficiently to short out by touching each other.

You can charge it and get a reading of 12.6V, but leave it standing for a few hours and it will drop to 10V or less, even without being fitted to the bike.

As Pete suggested, you need an auto electrician to "Load Test" your battery to prove/disprove this theory.

And please don't replace it with a cheap arsed Chinese battery, they are weak enough to overload charging systems and cause reg/rec and alternator failures. Buy a genuine Yuasa or get an Oddysey or equivalent.

 

[iainw]

Thanks Ghezzi,

I had it on charge again last night, put the volt meter across it and it read 14.1, switched on and the numbers started to fall, as it reached 13.2 I pressed go, the number went to less than 1v as it went clunk.

It had it's second battery about 18 months ago, that was a cheap one which lasted a year. I replaced that in October last year with the correct Yausa one. If it's that, then it's only lasted 5 months! , good thing is it'll still be under warranty.

I'll try to get it tested.

Would a jammed starter give the same symptoms?

 

[iainw]

I got it tested at Ribblesdale Autos in Preston, a very helpful chap was quite impressed with the battery, he said it's as good as new and is better than some car batteries, it was holding a good 9 volts under load.

He was also curious as to how much I'd paid for it and checked his pooter, said that he could do them for £49, I paid just over twice that! So, if you are in the UK and need a battery, contact Ribblesdale Autos, Preston 01772 555011. He also suggested I look at the starter motor and offered that they could fix it if it's at fault.

As kiwi dave suggests, the starter motor is up for test. How do I do this? If I have the starter off the bike and a pair of jump leads connected to the battery is it earth to the body and live to the big terminal? what about the other connector? Is the torque going to whip it out of my hand? should I bolt it down?

Thanks for the help so far.
Iain

 

[kiwi dave]

Connect the positive to both terminals, negative to the case of the starter motor. Since you will already be holding the wires onto the motor, it shouldn't jump around too much. But it should really whirr, a pathetic response might suggest a shorted turn in the windings.

But I'm still suggesting the battery. Try to borrow a known good one to eliminate the battery for sure. Dropping to one volt shouldn't happen when attempting to crank. Are you measuring the voltage directly across the battery, or are you using the voltmeter on the dashboard to measure this?

If the latter, there's a possibility of a poor connection in the wiring somewhere. I'd start with those two 30 amp fuses, check the receptacle, and try replacing the fuses, even if they look intact.

 

[iainw]

I was measuring the voltage across the battery, not the dash.

I'll try starting it from my car, it's a diesel with a good battery but I'm not sure when I'll get time to do more testing, i've a busy day tomorrow.

 

[iainw]

Connect the positive to both terminals, negative to the case of the starter motor. Since you will already be holding the wires onto the motor, it shouldn't jump around too much. But it should really whirr, a pathetic response might suggest a shorted turn in the windings.

But I'm still suggesting the battery. Try to borrow a known good one to eliminate the battery for sure. Dropping to one volt shouldn't happen when attempting to crank. Are you measuring the voltage directly across the battery, or are you using the voltmeter on the dashboard to measure this?

If the latter, there's a possibility of a poor connection in the wiring somewhere. I'd start with those two 30 amp fuses, check the receptacle, and try replacing the fuses, even if they look intact.

Started to take the starter off, when I was loosening it there was a ping as if something on a spring came free, so I tightend it back up and went to jump start it off the car, full of hope.

Got the jump leads on and the dash was reading 13.3v, all looking good! pressed the start and it just went clunk! The dash only dropped to 13.1v so I deduce it's not a battery issue.

With the starter off the bike I connected the jump leads as described but when the the two lives connect to the starter I get a bunch of bright orange sparks, so I disconnect straight away. Is this normal???

Any thoughts?
The starter motor is going to Ribblesdale tomorrow.

 

[john zibell]

The sparks are normal if the starter is bound. Good think you are taking the starter to the shop. If you want a really good starter I'd order one of these from the US. http://www.motoelekt.com/starter.htm

 

[iainw]

Auto electricians called and said the starter is good, they've bench tested it and even taken it apart, it's like new inside, nothing wrong with it.

I've had a look at the two green fuses and they look OK but I'll change them out and try that.

Any suggestions on where to look next?

Thanks,
Iain

 

[iainw]

I was late picking up the starter by 10 minutes, they'd shut and gone.

On wondering what to look for next I remembered I'd read the 'Engine Immobilizer question' thread the other day. I've pulled the tip over sensor out and put the beep tester across it and I get a beep. I get a beep which ever way up I put it, I think I've found the fault.

John Zibell's comment says it should be open circuit for the engine to run so when I get the starter back I'll give it a go without it connected.

Fingers crossed.

 

[kiwi dave]

I was late picking up the starter by 10 minutes, they'd shut and gone.

On wondering what to look for next I remembered I'd read the 'Engine Immobilizer question' thread the other day. I've pulled the tip over sensor out and put the beep tester across it and I get a beep. I get a beep which ever way up I put it, I think I've found the fault.

John Zibell's comment says it should be open circuit for the engine to run so when I get the starter back I'll give it a go without it connected.

Fingers crossed.

I doubt if its the tip over sensor, as you're getting the clunk indicating that the solenoid is trying to engage.

Before you reinstall the starter, connect the wires and ground the starter against the frame or connect a heavy wire between the starter and the ground wire under the starter. Try operating the starter button, and determine if the starter motor spins. If it doesn't there's still a problem somewhere else.

Interesting that you experienced a "ping" as you removed the starter, this is indicative of a jam being freed. Try turning the motor over with the nut at the front of the crankshaft so that the starter engages on another portion of the ring gear. You will also confirm that the motor itself is able to be turned over.

 

[iainw]

Try turning the motor over with the nut at the front of the crankshaft so that the starter engages on another portion of the ring gear. You will also confirm that the motor itself is able to be turned over.

Just turned the motor over by the front crank nut, it turns OK. Thanks, I'll try the other checks when I get the starter back.

 

[iainw]

I wired the starter to the bikes wiring and put a jump lead from its chassis to the battery -ve. The starter gear jumps back and forwards, I get the clunk but the motor won't spin. I tried this with the tip over sensor connected and disconnected, and got the same result, the starter won't spin, it jumps and clunks.

I also tried the 'touch the top of fuse B test' still no go and I’ve replaced the two large green fuses.

It's not the battery.
It's not the battery connections.
It's not the starter motor.
It's not the starter connections or earth.
It’s not the fuses.
It's not the tip over sensor.
It's not the starter relay bypass modification.

I'm thinking it's a voltage drop but where is it? Where is the best place to start and how do I trace it?

Thanks for the help so far, I appreciate it, keep the suggestions coming.