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B11/Norge Startus Interruptus-the MPH Solution

toddhaven

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
48
Location
Houston, TX
OK guys there have been a lot of postings about this problem, and a few good fixes. They all involve some fiddling with wiring, a topic that many are not comfortable doing. The cause is known to those of us who have posted fixes, the trouble has been finding a way for the home DIY Guzzi guy to make his bike reliable.
I rarely feel that adding parts to a system is the best way to make it more reliable, but in this case it is.
MPH has sourced the connectors needed to make a plug and play voltage supply relay kit available.
Installation is as simple as can be , unplug your starter relay, plug in the harness, attach the removed relay to the harness, zip tie the OE removed relay to the supplied relay, and connect the 2 eyelets to the battery. We are using the well known Bosch relay and a Mini ATC fuse holder . In the rare event of a failure of any part of this system, you can unplug it all and be stock again in seconds.
-Mike Haven
DSC02018.jpg


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This kit looks like it will sell for about $40 shipped in the US.
We have enough supplies on hand to make a few, but we are wondering how much call there will be for these.
Any volume production will take a few weeks to get ramped up.

Any interest?
 

GTM®

Administrator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
Joined
Jul 1, 2009
Messages
12,867
Location
Malibu
Excellent, thanks for posting here.

I'll take 2-3 to keep in the toolbox for anyone that needs them here in SoCal.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,095
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
I'm sorry, but for the life of me I can't see why you need an additional relay.
A plug and play fitment to replace the yellow wire to the start relay is certainly a good idea, but can be done just as well without the extra relay.
 

mvermeyl

Just got it firing!
Joined
Feb 17, 2011
Messages
22
Hi Tod ,

Please count me in also for this kit.
Marc Vermeylen / Norge 2007 / Belgium
 

mike haven

Just got it firing!
Joined
Sep 14, 2010
Messages
1
Brian UK please elaborate on your scheme if you would. My reason for the relay is the fact that the yellow circuit must be turned off when the bike is switched off. A direct connection to the battery results in a dead battery overnight.
I am all ears for a better way to connect it, if you can share.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,095
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
I have removed the yellow wire from the start relay and taped the end up. Then connected a new wire from battery positive to the vacant pin on the relay. QED.
Having sourced the connectors to make a plug and play item, all you should need to do is run the three wires from the male connector to the female, leaving the yellow not connected, and connect your fused red from the battery to the remaining connection on the female where the yellow would have gone.
This should copy exactly what I have done. It does not result in a dead battery. Remember the new red wire is connected to a normally open contact on the relay.
Hope this makes sense.
 

Nick

Cruisin' Guzzisti
Joined
Oct 30, 2008
Messages
155
Location
New Jersey, USA
Brian UK said:
It appears that there is now a simpler version available. Half the price too. :D
Well, Mike did state: "I am all ears for a better way to connect it".

So, Thank you Mike! And if your logic was the cause for the change, Thank you Brian UK.
 

Brian UK

GT Reference
Joined
Nov 6, 2008
Messages
2,095
Location
Addlestone, Surrey, UK
Hey, if I was in any way a part of improving the product, it was my pleasure. That's what we're all here for isn't it?

However, I have to say that I have once had the problem return, and it blew the new inline fuse too.
I took the starter motor off and pulled the solenoid. I found the plunger was quite tight in the solenoid, and there was a ridge at one end too. I cleaned that off, and put some light oil on the plunger (there was some dried grease there before) and all has been good since - so far.
 

john zibell

Moderator
Staff member
GT di Razza Pura
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Oct 28, 2008
Messages
8,688
Location
Huntsville, AL
Brian UK said:
However, I have to say that I have once had the problem return, and it blew the new inline fuse too.
I took the starter motor off and pulled the solenoid. I found the plunger was quite tight in the solenoid, and there was a ridge at one end too. I cleaned that off, and put some light oil on the plunger (there was some dried grease there before) and all has been good since - so far.

That could explain why some have the problem and some don't. Thanks for the information.
 

RJVB

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Paris
Re: B11/Norge Startus Interruptus Solution for bat. protect

I have a slightly different startup problem, happened twice to me now. Engine starts fine if a bit laboriously after a couple of days of inactivity (about 9 this time; 9°C on the dash). I ride to the other side of the village to fill up (about 3km), which of course means cutting the engine. And then I get the infamous "click" trying to restart the engine, obliging me to run-start the bike. Good exercise but a pedalbike would be cheaper for that...

Battery is a little over a year old, well initialised AFAIK and always treated well by me (almost no short trips). It charges will on the Optimate. Engine running I get a little under 14V on the battery terminals, with very little variation with engine regime. However, the dashboard volt meter shows a considerably lower value (12.9V at best dropping to about 12.2V when I'm over 90km/h?!) and I think my problem lies therein. The damn battery protection shuts off the starting procedure if the measured tension drops under I forget what value ... and under-estimating the real tension by up to 1.5V surely doesn't help.

So, does the MPH solution bypass that protection? Or is there another way to accomplish that — WITHOUT giving up on the electronic anti-start protection of course? Could there be corrosion on a contact somewhere explaining the dash's underestimation?

Has anyone ever installed a 'direct' voltmeter, something like this one? I think it'd be good to have one to have to watch over the charging voltage while riding (in case my regulator is going south when getting warm), but it should of course not represent an additional drain...
 

john zibell

Moderator
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GT di Razza Pura
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Oct 28, 2008
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8,688
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Rene,

Your battery voltage is OK. I believe the no run threshold is about 10 volts and you are above that. You aren't getting enough amperage to activate the solenoid. I think the MPH solution will help.
 

Oz1200Guzzi

High Miler
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
885
Location
Mount Kembla, NSW, Australia
Rene,

the CARC Guzzis have two charging circuits from the alternator: one straight to the battery; the other to everything else. The best way to measure charging voltage is right on the battery terminals, as you have done. The one in the dash simply gives a lesser number due to the voltage drop between the alternator and the dash. Italian wiring is just big enough to do the job when new, but becomes inadequate as it ages (a bit like many of us).

This is why quite a few of us are having starting problems in the first instance - too much voltage drop between the source (battery) and the target (solenoid). It would seem from your description that you battery may not be fully charged. It starts once, you do a few kilometres and the battery still hasn't fully recovered from the start so therefore it hasn't got enough juice left for the next start.

Next time, go the long way for fuel, something that takes 30 minutes or more to ensure there is a full charge for when you refuel. You may just have a dicky battery...
 

RJVB

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Paris
Yeah, the battery certainly wasn't fully charged - it had been sitting for a week, and started the engine once. However, it should be able to sustain several cycles, even after sitting for a week, IMHO. It's a pretty big battery, after all...!

I think I'll have to get used to fill up when arriving rather than when leaving. The engine will be hot and the battery full. Or maybe get one of Todd's LiIon marvels!
 

RJVB

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Paris
I've had some feedback on the French forum. The newer (8V) CARC models no longer have the automatic starting cycle, which is apparently the process that also includes the battery protection feature (residing in the ECU and not the dash, BTW). From what I understand some models have a dual mode, in which a prolonged holding down of the starter button activates the manual mode, but from 2011 there's only manual. All this is apparently controlled via relays, so it might be possible to convert any model to a manual starter.
I'm just not at ease enough with vehicle electronics yet to figure out how to accomplish this all by myself, let alone start meddling with Italian wiring ... awaiting further instructions.
 

Bill Hagan

GT Reference
GT Famiglia
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
1,576
Location
Above Pott's Camp along Braddock's route, Virginia
RJVB said:
I've had some feedback on the French forum. The newer (8V) CARC models no longer have the automatic starting cycle, which is apparently the process that also includes the battery protection feature (residing in the ECU and not the dash, BTW). From what I understand some models have a dual mode, in which a prolonged holding down of the starter button activates the manual mode, but from 2011 there's only manual. All this is apparently controlled via relays, so it might be possible to convert any model to a manual starter.
I'm just not at ease enough with vehicle electronics yet to figure out how to accomplish this all by myself, let alone start meddling with Italian wiring ... awaiting further instructions.

MPH's plug & play sounds like your answer to me. :lol:

Seriously, good luck, rjvb. Will say that my Norge was plagued by this phenom ...



... after that fix, not one recurrence. And, I haven't lost any friends since! :blush:

Bill
 

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RJVB

GT Reference
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,936
Location
Paris
@John, sorry, missed your reply. Yes, my battery seems to be OK, but the threshold is applied to the estimate made by the ECU. If that is like the dash's estimate, it may be way pessimistic.

The MPH solution might work if indeed it reduces losses, and thus prevents unnecessary voltage drops while trying to start. However, if I understand correctly, it does not short-circuit the circuit that applies the threshold, right?

From the tech. doc. of the 8V manuals with double starter logic:

motor12008vcoursegb3.jpg

motor12008vcoursegb1ref.jpg


or easier to read

7089298Vdem.jpg


where the 'relais maintien' maintains the supply to the solenoid in case the ECU detects a low-voltage condition (and when one keeps holding the starter button pressed, something which 'normally' has no effect at all).

This is different from the MPH solution, or have I misunderstood?
 

john zibell

Moderator
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GT di Razza Pura
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Rene,

I think you are over thinking this. You can either do a little cutting and soldering (Patrick Hayes gave us this modification which was originally devised for the small blocks), or just by the MPH plug in kit. Both will achieve the same result. Think of the Nike Advertizement. Just do it. If the mod doesn't solve your problem, then start getting into more serious analysis.
 

Suncoast

Tuned and Synch'ed
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Messages
42
Location
Sechelt, BC
Does anyone have a link to the MPH solution? Whats the cost? I've tried to find it but maybe I'm looking in the wrong place, sounds very similar to the hot start relay that I had to install on my old VW bus. :D
 
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