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Benelli, China, Italy…

scottmastrocinque said:
I am sure that they exist in small numbers. Historically though, China has been the land of cheap, disposable, goods. It's primary selling point has historically always been price.

You cannot simultaneously produce highest quality and lowest price. Those two are economically incompatible.
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they can and do because China is an enormous country / economy making lots of stuff at every price.
 
tobinh said:
they can and do because China is an enormous country / economy making lots of stuff at every price.
Click to expand...

Although I am not intimately connected in the industrial world for many years now, I do realize that there are no common recognized names of Chinese manufacturers that have world or even brand recognition.

I do feel that most items from China are of the price point variety.

Nobody purchases electron microscopes, or MRI units, or high-precision machines or equipment from China that I know of. Again, my experience is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. I just know that I would never consider China as a source of precision production. Never.

As I said before, it is impossible to operate on a business model of highest possible quality and lowest possible price. They are wholly incompatible conditions.
 
scottmastrocinque said:
Although I am not intimately connected in the industrial world for many years now, I do realize that there are no common recognized names of Chinese manufacturers that have world or even brand recognition.

I do feel that most items from China are of the price point variety.

Nobody purchases electron microscopes, or MRI units, or high-precision machines or equipment from China that I know of. Again, my experience is not conclusive by any stretch of the imagination. I just know that I would never consider China as a source of precision production. Never.

As I said before, it is impossible to operate on a business model of highest possible quality and lowest possible price. They are wholly incompatible conditions.
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I don't know anything about electron microscopes or MRIs, but mostly this is a misconception driven by marketing and sometimes tax purposes.

we buy production and precision machining equipment from all over the world, quality is all over the place. if I were to make some massive, mostly pointless generalities due to many significant exceptions, the worst stuff comes from Europe, American/Canadian units are okay, and the best stuff comes from Japan. the Chinese firms will make you whatever you want. if I call up an American or Canadian company and say "yea I like this unit but I need this, this, and this improved or changed" they will say "uh... let me call you back." and then they never do. a Chinese firm will literally send me a prototype in seven days. the Europeans will tell me I'm stupid for wanting those things, and sell me a stock machine. I mean to be fair sometimes they're right!

but really, all this stuff is made in China, regardless of what it says on the box. almost all Japanese manufacturers are only doing assembly in Japan. at least some of Fanuc stuff is really made in Japan - and it's amazing - same as Itotec and probably a few others, but not many.

I could write more, but this princess insists she will literally die if she goes without attention for more than five minutes:

20221210 103131

the main point here is to stop thinking of China as 'one thing'. they make everything at every level. the only real difference is, if you go to a European company and say 'hey I need this $1000 machine for $50' they will just laugh and say no. the Chinese company will send you one, and it will be... a $50 machine.
 
tobinh said:
…I could write more, but this princess insists she will literally die if she goes without attention for more than five minutes:

20221210 103131
Click to expand...

Sweet Girl! There is nothing in this world I love more, than dogs.

Dogs are everything to me. Much more than motorcycles.

00CEA2D1 52AE 4F11 A532 6E3BAFCDD05E
 
I have been following this thread and finally have time to type a reply. The true cost of manufacturing something is not much different in one country than in another. Chinese manufacturers can (and do) supply quality products, but the cost is much higher than the cheap imported stuff we get here. The trouble is that large USA distributors and retailers buy low quality, low-priced goods from China, Vietnam, and other countries and then try to sell those items at slightly lower prices than high quality items available from other manufacturers in order to maximize profits. Consumers who buy the cheap items end up with problems and no customer support. The cheap imports also reduce demand for the higher quality items so those manufacturers drop out of the market (or stores do not stock the items and it becomes harder for discriminating buyers to purchase the higher quality items).
 
Me as a finishing carpenter on this:
-Good quality job will not be fast or cheap
-Cheap job will be fast but not good quality
-Fast job will be cheap but not good quality
With that being said, if I lived in China and worked for mere pennies (in comparison to western world), I would still be doing same quality job that would look ridiculously cheap for western world. Moral of the story- there are really good quality stuff coming from there, innovation etc, but the Chinese market image is blackened by mass-produced cheapass crap and people just can't tell the difference anymore
 
I do home renovations. All my work is done by time and materials. If somebody wants a quote I'll give them a ballpark figure. If they want a set price I will usually tell them I'm not the guy for the job. I refuse to be rushed and stressed. I only do good quality work. There are too many surprises when renovating old places. Adding extra after extra to the price is not my style.
 
I’m the same way.

If you want me to work on your motorcycle, I’ll give you an idea of what we are looking at but old stuff is old stuff and there has never been a single motorcycle that came to me for “x” that didn’t need “y” “z” and usually 2 or 3 additional things that came up during the repair. Old stuff is old stuff.
 
tobinh said:
seems some posts disappeared here, so apologies for lack of context, but I would definitely be @scottmastrocinque 's friend! we don't have to agree on everything to tip a few glasses of grappa together.
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This is the Holiday month of Cheer and Season's Greetings.
I look forward to lifting a glass with Scott one day in 2023.
 
When profit is the main objective, corners are cut and quality is always at risk. As others have said, segments of Chinese manufacturing and engineering are absolutely capable of making advanced and quality products. The shift from state-run industry to "independent" entrepreneurs over the last 30 years has sorted the great amount of poor quality goods from high production quality and material specification. If quality is what you want, it will cost you anywhere...even in China. To spec the poor quality hardware or tech manufacturing from China...or any country...is a profit driven decision. Post WWII, Japan was associated with cheap metal toys- mostly because the manufacturing capabilities were decimated in the war. It took decades to overcome that presumption, but Japanese tech and manufacturing rose to top quality in both reality and perception. China is a bigger and vastly more complicated country, but I dare say, it will take longer to achieve a greater level of overall product and production quality, but it is possible. I've taught in several universities in China, and I have seen technology, manufacturing, and finished product that is second to none. Believe me, it is there, just not in the motor vehicle or other relatively lower-cost products and markets.
 
Thank you Ken. This is precisely what I am saying.

As far as I know, there is no common known company manufacturing name like GROB-WERKE GmbH & Co. KG for a company in China. This is my point. China is hit and miss at best (in my opinion, based solely upon my own personal anecdotal experience).

I just don't see them becoming a powerhouse of precision craftsmanship anytime soon regardless of what people might say. The Japanese, Germans, Italians, and Austrians are light years ahead of them.
 
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