Breva 1100 Clutch Slipping

[Eagle]

OK so the Breva clutch has started slipping when giving it anything more than half throttle in 4th, 5th, or 6th under hard acceleration. The bike has 16000 miles on it. This started after a long period of hot weather when I had been riding it hard every day with a lot of up and down the gears and hard acceleration round uk country roads. Prior to this I had never actually given it full throttle so perhaps it was always there and I never noticed or perhaps not. Now if I accelerate hard I get a smell of burning clutch. I changed the clutch fluid - it was a yukky grey colour. I doubt it has ever been done before. The brake fluid is fine and nice.

So now I know have to change the clutch and possibly some seals while I am at it.

Looking for a bit of advice on the actual process. From what I can gather it's a case of

Remove foot hangers/side panels
Remove rear brake
Remove rear wheel
Remove swingarm and CARC unit in a oner
Remove shock linkage to access the cover for the clutch
Drain clutch fluid
Remove clutch cover
Remove clutch plate and replace and replace the little springs

Do I need a special tool for aligning the clutch?


Is that about the size of it?

Any advice gratefully recieved

 

[nel]

You have to take the engine out and spit it from the gearbox. Oil leaks would indicate a engine out or gearbox in seal gone. If it's not leaking don't change em. Use to be £900 quid for a dealer clutch swap.

 

[Eagle]

WOW. £900?

There's no oil leaking (currently) there was a tiny amount came out of the filler plug on the CARC during the hot weather - I put it down to the extreme (for Scotland) heat and my my "spirited"riding and just not being tight enough - I cleaned it up and re-tightened the filler and there's been no repeat.

I was half wondering if a combination of the heat making seals etc more pliable and oil less viscous and me me riding it so hard had forced some oil past somewhere?

I need to exhaust any other all possibilities first.

Things to check that I have gleaned from other posts are

1.Check slave cylinder is fully operational enabling clutch to fully engage/disengage
2. Check gearbox oil level - too high may have lead to contamination of plates, too low indicating a failure of the gearbox input or output seal.
3. Remove CARC and inspect for oil running down inside swing arm
4. Someone somewhere mentioned running the bike on the centre stand and putting mineral spirits (American for white spirit?) through the clutch to clean the plates - no idea how or if this is possible on a Breva?
5. Remove rubber timing hole plug and with a torch look inside for any fluid - where is the "rubber timing hole plug"?

Anyway - is it actually worth going through all these or should I just rip into it and see what I find as I go?

I have the service manual and taking the engine out does't seem that difficult, just a lot of things to do but it all looks quite sensible and I've done quite a bit of it in one form or another at various points.

I take it the reason you have to take the engine out is simply so you can disconnect the clutch housing in order to get it opened up?

Also I found this

http://www.apriliaforum.com/forums/arch ... 47779.html

And just remembered I noticed a few weeks back that there was some bubbling paint on the clutch master cylinder and figured a little bit of fluid must be seeping out - on opening it up there was some fluid on top of the rubber cover. Could it be that the reason for the awful grey colour of the fluid, some leaking and the slipping clutch are all related and maybe the slave cylinder is the problem? maybe not fully releasing or something, like it is remaining slightly actuated/stuck and that is causing the pressure to force some of the fluid out around the master cylinder seal when the lever is actuated?

 

[john zibell]

Eagle,

If it isn't just a clutch slave problem, to replace the clutch plates and transmission input gear takes several special tools. Some say you don't need the special tools, but it sure makes the job easier and quicker. First off see if you have the usual double clutch plate system, or the rarer single plate system in the 1100 Breva. You can tell which you have by pulling the timing/inspection plug on the right side of the transmission. If you see a solid flywheel face with a ring gear bolted on, you have the double plate, it you see webbing type of assembly you have the single plate. With the double plate you need the alignment tool, Also tools to replace the hub gear too. Labor involved is quite a bit, and all the parts required to get everything while you are there aren't cheap. I know the flat rate time on Tonti bikes is 6 hours. I imagine the time for the CARC bikes is close to that figure.

 

[hhkiwi]

And just remembered I noticed a few weeks back that there was some bubbling paint on the clutch master cylinder

That's interesting. I had the same on my B12S (paint coming off) and just a few days ago read someone selling their Breva describing the same thing.

I simply touched up the spot with black paint and my clutch is (still) working fine but I wonder if that's something I need to keep an eye on?

 

[Eagle]

Might be totally unrelated but who knows. I'll have a look in the hole and see what I can see.

I wonder if it would be worth me doing all the work to remove the clutch and then handing it to the dealer to replace the plates? that way saving on labour and having to buy special tools?

 

[john zibell]

Might be totally unrelated but who knows. I'll have a look in the hole and see what I can see.

I wonder if it would be worth me doing all the work to remove the clutch and then handing it to the dealer to replace the plates? that way saving on labour and having to buy special tools?

Might. Dealer needs the engine and flywheel plus the transmission to replace all the necessary parts for a clutch job. That would cut several of the labor hours (probably 5), but none of the parts prices. Just had him the engine and flywheel assembled, it is easier to just replace the plates it the springs don't fall out. The alinement tool holds the pressure plate in so all stays in place. The springs usually don't require replacement unless the bike is very old. You will still need the socket to properly load the swing arm bearings at 10Nm. Good opportunity to lube the bearings and shock linkage at the same time.

 

[Penis Rotor]

A few things.

When removing the CARC and swingarm you will have to separate them as there is no way to re-engage the splines of the rear driveshaft yoke onto the pinion when you re-install it.

You will almost certainly find that both your swingarm bearings and the shock linkage bearings are shot so budget for replacing them.

Get a manual and have a good read of it. It would seem that you have little understanding of the construction of the motive unit. Until yu get a better understanding of where the major components like the clutch live I would advise strongly against ripping into stuff willy-nilly.

If you do find yourself out of your depth remember that NOBODY likes being presented with a half disassembled machine and being asked to fix it and re-assemble it. I for one stopped taking in basket cases with a hundred coffee jars full of nuts and bolts years ago. Not only are they a nightmare as there are always bits missing but if any problems, even if they are completely unrelated, appear it always leads to acrimony and accusations that it is somehow the shop's responsibility to either fix everything or preferably supply the owner with a new motorbike. 'Taint gunna happen! Consider carefully whether you want to embark on the complete job. If you don't? Take it as a single lump to your dealer.

Flushing the clutch with spirits may or may not work depending on what the problem is. AFAIK B11's all have the twin plate clutch. The problem with the Nuovo Six-Speed is that the bottom of the bell housing has a much larger opening than previous gearboxes so it is considerably harder to seal to allow the insertion of the white spirit without it simply running out the bottom.

My feeling is that whatever the reason for the slippage, and there could be a host of reasons, it is most likely that you will have to separate the gearbox from the engine to strip and inspect the clutch and replace componentry which is, on a B11, a fairly major embuggerance, especially for a novice. Consider carefully before you start.

One final thing. On your clutch lever you will see that there is a barrel shaped part that holds the plunger that activates the master cylinder piston. If you look at the 'Back' end of that plunger where it sits in the barrel you may be able to se that it has a small slot for a flat bladed screwdriver. Get a suitable screwdriver and, holding the lever away from the bar, see if the plunger will turn? (Removing the lever from its perch will allow you to try and turn the plunger with your fingers or pliers as well.). The thing is the plunger is threaded into the barrel and it is supposed to be locked in the correct position by a tiny grub-screw. If this grub screw has worked loose or fallen out even then the plunger will in some cases come loose in the barrel and under the influence of vibration can wind itself in or out. If over a period of time it winds itself in it can pre-load the piston to the point where the hydraulic system closes. At that point heat transferred from the clutch mechanism and gearbox will begin to heat the fluid and with the system being closed it has no expansion option but to start pre-loading the clutch pushrod and reducing the clamping force on the plates. Once it starts to spin it creates more heat and it becomes a vicious cycle! If the plunger is loose? Wind it out until it *just* doesn't touch the plunger and lock it up with the grub screw, (If the screw has gone walkabout they aren't available as a separate part from Guzzi but you can pick one up from a specialty fastener supplier.). The plunger has to allow the piston to return fully when the lever is released to expose the prime hole in the master cylinder and open the hydraulic circuit. I'm not saying this is your problem but its worth checking before to take the motorbike to bits.

Pete

 

[Eagle]

Hi John - thanks for your response -

If it comes to it then handing over the whole engine sounds like a plan. And yes I have been wanting to get in about the shock anyway to give it a good clean/lube.


Hi Pete - thanks for your response too

I had thought maybe you could do both the CARC and Swingarm in one, I knew they came apart separately but thats no prob.

Re. shock and swing bearings - done then on the Funduro before so hopefully can manage that one.

Re manuals - I have the MG workshop manual. I couldn't find a Clymer or Haynes one that covered the Breva. Can you recommend a manual?

I don't have a huge understanding of where the things live which is why I am on here : ) But I do usually find that having read what I can find on line and working slowly and patiently that nothing is ever actually that complicated as long as you carefully note where all the bits go : ) If anything I'm usually over cautious. I also like working on my bikes : ) Every time something breaks I spend the money it would cost to pay someone to fix it on the tool you need to fix it, then I have a tool to use next time and a new skill. Don't worry I'm not the type to just start pulling screws out and leave the all over the place lol and I always ensure I have another active mode of transport too so there is no pressure which makes a world of difference.

I bought a 2005 italian motorbike in Scotland miles from the dealer - gotta suck it up!

One of the things I have learned from doing my own maintenance - largely out of neccessity - is that things are usually nowhere near as bad as you first think especially when you read stories online - people only write about the bad stuff!

I don't think I should need a new clutch given the age/mileage of the bike so I'm going to look at every other option first, then if it's the last thing on the list weigh up the costs/tools/time etc and look at my bank account. If necessary I think I'll take the engine out and take it to the dealer. But then again if I get that far I might decide to go the whole hog. But good advice - I am suitably warned!


Could I impose on you for a few pointers on how to flush the clutch?

Re. the clutch lever plunger, I had a look at that last week. The grub screw is missing and the plunger is seized except for a small amount of movement. I tried WD40 and a heat gun to no avail. It will need a new lever as there is no way it's coming out.

I decided after reading your post to have a look at a few things this evening.


First up the gear oil. Level is slightly higher than dain hole (minimally). I drained it to just below the hole level. It was changed 3000 miles ago so hopefully this is not the issue as it's been fine till now. Oil was in good condition.

Had a look at the CARC oil level - base of the filler hole.

Had a look for any oil leaks. Dirty/oily deposit build up at rear of oil pan and going quite high up. Cleaned it all up so if there is a leak it will be evident however I think this is just road crap mixed with ACF50. Will check tomorrow. Never been any oil trace on the ground or bike.

Inspected clutch fluid - dirty grey again. underneath of lid had gungy deposits that looked like salt/aluminium corrosion. Fluid metallic grey. Liquid on top of the rubber cover - unable to determine if water or DOT4 Changed fluid.

Noticed even slightest press of the clutch lever resulted in a little squirt of fluid shooting up. Replaced everything. Washed bike. played with clutch and noticed there are two little slots on the metal top of the master cylinder and when I squeezed the lever small water bubbles appeared. Now I know what the fluid on top of the rubber probably was.

But this made me think about the plunger again. When I looked at it before i had thought it was OK as the resistance was nil when pressing the lever the first cm or so.
But these bubbles made me realise there must be pressure in the system even then. I took the dremmel to the plunger and cut off a couple of mil since it is stuck and will be getting replaced anyway. Works OK.


I know what you mean about the fluid getting heated - I had a bugger of a problem with my Funduro rear brake dragging, heating and seizing until I stripped the caliper, ground down all the corrosion on the moving parts and greased it all up again.

Interestingly today the Breva was a lot better. I will see how it goes tomorrow.

 

[Eagle]

OK, today it was much better. On the ride to work it only slipped a little, once. On the return journey a few times but much less readily and it "bit" again much more quickly than previously and by itself without me having to ease off the throttle. It seems 4th gear is the worst when giving it full throttle. I was really riding it hard, giving it full throttle then slowing up and trying again in each gear. It was also quite hot this afternoon (20C) as opposed to quite a cool morning.

But it is a huge improvement. I will shave a little bit more off the seized plunger and report back : )

It does have a very short pull before the clutch disengages so I am hopeful this may be a resolution.

 

[Eagle]

Latest results - this morning after taking another touch off the plunger it slipped a little a couple of times but only after the bike had warmed up a bit. This afternoon not at all however although I was giving it full throttle I wound it up slightly more gradually instead of just 0-100% and no problems.

It is definitely 4th that seems to be the trouble point. I accelerate full through third up to 7K rpm, then switch up to 4th and give it full and thats when things get overloaded. If I build up to it instead of simply snapping my wrist too soon it's fine now.

If I'm in 4th not going that fast and then I open it full it slowly creeps up and it's fine, it's when it's mid way up the rev range going hard and I "floor it" the issue emerges.

So is this what I should expect? Should I be able to snap my wrist open to full throttle in any gear at any revs and expect the clutch to handle it? or am I asking too much?

Up till now I haven't been doing this but I've been pushing the bike more recently and using the full rev range in a sportier way rather than riding like a fuel conscious short shifting pootler.

I had a chat with a local workshop that is a vespa dealer and does a lot of motorbike servicing too. The owner said he has been through 3 dry clutches on his Ducati and the dirty fluid is because clutch powder gets on the slave piston and contaminates the fluid which seems like a reasonable explanation.

Anyway, he thought maybe the clutch was on the beginning of the way out but could probably wait a while.

He knows the Guzzi Dealers and gets on with them and is happy to work on my machine and obviously being a Vespa dealer is used to italian machines and has easy access to parts etc.

For now I'm going to baby it and see how it goes. If I get some more life out of it and the only sacrifice is not to shred it and my wallet on fuel/tyres and parts I can live with that if I get a few thousand miles out of it and maybe fix it over the winter.

 

[john zibell]

There should be no clutch slip at all. Pay particular attention to what Pete said about the plunger behind the clutch lever. Something isn't right and needs to be corrected. If you keep getting clutch slip you will just toast the friction plates if you haven't already.

 

[Eagle]

Well it has definitely markedly improved since the adjustment of the plunger but I've gone as far as I can with that now.

In terms of pulling the lever the first part of the stroke provides some, but little resistance ( I have pulled the lever for comparison with the plunger completely disengaged to see what the resistance is like).

I am in two minds as to whether this is caused by the rubber gaiter the plunger goes through to reach the MC providing a degree of springy resistance. However then it goes hard and immediately as you depress any further the rattling noise from the disengaged clutch begins.

On releasing the lever from a full pull nothing happens for a while and then you hit a point where the clutch immediately engages. Pull back even a fraction and it disengages again.

I have tested this with the bike in first and just seeing at what point it bites.

I am wondering if there is a problem with the master or slave. This is because when I depress the lever, for the portion at which there is barely any resistance, if I put a little spit over the notches in the lid I still get bubbles which seems to indicate the fluid inside is being pressurised so there must be some actuation of the MC happening. What I'm curious about is why the pressure needed to depress the lever suddenly increases and then immediately the clutch releases.

Is this normal for the Breva - I mean I know it is a "short" clutch but are other peoples as short? This could have been an issue as long as I've had the bike to be honest because I've always ridden it quite sedately and had the clutch slip before so I have nothing to compare it with.

I'm also wondering if either the master or slave cylinder is not fully returning resulting in the initial mushiness and keeping a residual pressure int he system?

So I guess my question is "when the MC is being activated, what should the pressure feel like and how much should it be depressed before the clutch disengages?"

 

[Penis Rotor]

This is one of those things where no matter how well you try and describe the issue there is no real way for anyone to judge unless they are actually 'Doing It' themselves.

I know what *Normal* vs *Abnormal* feels like but I'd have a damned hard time describing it. Sorry.

Pete

 

[Ozrider58]

I have replaced the master cylinder on my B11 clutch. The seal where the plunger went in when the lever is pulled had gone and was leaking. Had a horrible experience with the clutch slipping and having to stop and top up the clutch fluid on a trip back of 1,400 ks back home. Haven't had any troubles since replacing the master cylinder after about a year and that included a 5,000 k round trip up into northern NSW where I gave the bike a bit of stick on some of the mountain roads there.

 

[Eagle]

I just wrote a big reply and lost it. So here are the bullet points:

Clutch much better after plunger shortened but not perfect - an additional contributing factor therefore but not whole story.

Concern plunger issue may have caused glazing of clutch plate necessitating replacement.

Decreased performance when bike/weather hot. Increased performance when bike/weather cold. Leading to consideration of further issue with hydraulic system such as master or slave cylinder faulty/sticking.

No discernible oil leak fuelling speculation regarding these matters.

-------------Update------------
Removed rubber inspection bung and shone torch into clutch. Seems OK not seeing any oil, but wasn't quite sure as looking towards the engine something looked a little shiny but then it is silvery paint.

After thoroughly cleaning underside of bike and riding for a week, trace of oil found on rear of vertical section of engine which clutch housing (if thats the word) butts up against it. Very small amount, like "legs" on a glass of whisky. Colour/smell of engine oil though mixed with a lot of road grime.

Decided weeping/leaking seal.

When CARC seal needed replaced it was same thing, only a problem on hot days/hard riding and very slight weeping. Guess as its an 05 bike 6-8 years is the life of a Guzzi seal. Therefore I will look at the others too as needing replaced.

Dealer confirmed about £600 for whole job and was very sympathetic about costs but said they would work on the engine no problem if I took it in and that would make it about £80 labour plus parts. I think the mech actually sounded like he perked up a bit at that suggestion!

So the mystery is solved.

The differing problem re. temperature being in my opinion down to the decreased/increased viscosity of the oil weeping from the seal and therefore the amount getting where it shouldn't be. Also the grub screw had fallen out from the plunger which had seized and was probably a bit far out anyway and not helping.

The bike is quite rideable presently and I will schedule the epic dismantling for the winter.









N