BREVA Red LED-Warning Light

[dimitris]

Hi,

One day, some months ago, when I turned the Key to ON position, after the diagnostic procedure had ended I noticed that the RED LED WARNING LIGHT had remained on (while on the dashboard the SERVICE icon was displayed). I turned the key OFF then again ON and the red warning light had gone. I didn't pay further attention.
during the last maybe 6 months it happened 2-3 times again. I turned the key to OFF position, then ON again and OK. One of these times I had to turn off and on and off and on again.

Today I see that the RED WARNING LIGHT (and the SERVICE icon on the dashboard) stay on and don't go OFF, no matter if I turn the key from ON to OFF.

What is it happening guys?

I entered the DIAGNOSIS mode. No ECU failures but on DASHBOARD I see 2 errors. I see the following:

03 o x
07 x x

Does it have to do with the RED WARNING LIGHT?



Awaiting for your suggestions..

Dimitris

 

[ncassidy]

I have had the same happen on my Norge. The service light will come on and then after turning the key on and off the light goes out. It will then come back on some time later. Have checked the codes and all were okay. Cleared them and it still happens. Bike still runs fine so I chalked it up to a ghost.

 

[dimitris]

ncassidy wrote:

I have had the same happen on my Norge. The service light will come on and then after turning the key on and off the light goes out. It will then come back on some time later. Have checked the codes and all were okay. Cleared them and it still happens. Bike still runs fine so I chalked it up to a ghost.

You mean that you ride your bike, while the RED WARNING LIGHT is ON?

As I wrote, the LIGHT stays ON, and it feels strange riding with this light, although the bike seems to run with no problems...

I wonder, do the DSB errors (03 & 07) have something to do with it?
On the workshopmanual it is written that:
error DSB 03 - Immobiliser fault:Antenna broken (open or short-circuit)
error DSB 07 - Oil sensor fault

What is the Antenna? broken? open-short circuit?
Oil sensor fault? Should I change the oil sensor? Where exactly is the oil sensor?
Do these errors explain the RED WARNING LIGHT?

:dry: :dry:

I tried twice to delete these DSB errors, but I see them again! (????)

 

[john zibell]

Dimitris,

The oils pressure sensors are a weak link on these bikes, and have been even before the FI systems. It is located at the left front of the engine. The parts manual is located here: https://www.guzzitech.com/MGGriso/Manual ... -Parts.pdf and the pressure sensor is item 12 on tab 44. I would replace the sensor and keep a spare as they can be troublesome.

The immobilizer antenna connector is shown in tab 36, but I'm not sure where the antenna is located.

 

[kiwi dave]

The antenna is located around the ignition key. My Breva also shows this error, I believe it's due to poor connections, but I haven't done anything about it as the immobiliser doesn't appear to be affected.

 

[dimitris]

Thank you very much for your replies!!
I spoke with a friend of mine who owns a Griso and told me that he faced the same problem with his bike, which was RED LIGHT when key to ON POSITION (and the SERVICE icon on the dashboard) which kept ON during engine working also..
He changed the sensor and the problem disappeared..

I will inform you about it.
I think I will order 2 oil sensors as John suggested.

About the immobilizer antenna, why isn't any part number in the parts manual?

 

[kiwi dave]

It will be the Oil Pressure Sensor that is initiating the Service Icon.

I would be surprized if the antenna is actually broken. As I understand it, it is simply a loop of wire around the key entry point, a simple passive device. More likely the connectors are corroded if I had to guess.

 

[ncassidy]

I have ridden mine with the service light on and for many miles. I service the machine myself so i know that the oil is up to level, plus I check it on a regular basis. Probably the ghost is a bum sensor. Will have it checked out.

 

[Bill Hagan]

ncassidy wrote:

I have ridden mine with the service light on and for many miles. I service the machine myself so i know that the oil is up to level, plus I check it on a regular basis. Probably the ghost is a bum sensor. Will have it checked out.

I am not a "sky is falling" kind of guy ... well, I wasn't, anyway, 'til the sky fell on me.

Let me be clear what happened, lest what Dimitris, Noel, others, and I are talking about be not the same thing.

When the archives return, one may refer to the details of error codes, etc., but the short version is that my red oil-pressure light would intermittently (tho often) show up on start, tho it either went away within a second or two, after revs hit 2K or so, or it would stay on after "light dance" but before started. In those instances, I could (almost always but not 100%) "make it go away" with a restart.

And, coupled with those events, I would occasionally, but, again, not always, get the SERVICE display or even, infrequently, get the "oil can" pic.

I replaced the oil-pressure sensor at 12K service, and the problem seemed to abate, tho it occasionally recurred.

I also was very good about routine, frequent checks of oil level.

I was told by various Guzzisti, and thought the right answer myself was, "just ride it."

Then, in early July, on return from 1100-mile trip (two-up, high-speed, twisty-filled) ride to Kentucky and Tennessee, the engine "blew up." By that I mean, the oil pump failed, taking with it about every moving part that needs oil. Yeah, that would be about all of 'em. :woohoo:

Under warranty, but a painful and expensive experience nonetheless. I do not recommend that course to others, but I also cannot imagine that, even if all your symtoms were mine, in the absence of a known-to-dealers-but-not-us-mere-mortals service notice from Piaggio, any dealer would tear down an engine to get to the oil pump to check for impending failure (or how one would spot that anyway. FWIW, my oil pump's outter rotating ring fractured.

Enough. Hope my problem was a onesie, limited to me, but thought you ought to know.

Bill

 

[crswa]

Count me as another Breva owner who's experienced this problem. It started in September after about 6 months of ownership and has happened a total of about 6 times since then. The Warning light comes on after the ignition is turned on and the self-check process is complete but before the engine is started. It also usually clears if I turn the ignition off and back on, but not always. If this warning light appeared while the bike was running, I'd immediately shut it off and get it to my nearest shop, but since it only appears when it's not supposed to, I've chalked it up to electronic gremlins and kept riding it.

I don't think this is a sensor issue simply because even a sensor in perfect condition is going to report low oil pressure when the engine isn't running. That is, a good sensor and a bad sensor are both going to report the same low oil pressure condition at zero RPMs. It's the computer's job to recognize that the engine isn't running and filter that signal out. This strikes me as a computer malfunction rather than a sensor problem.

Somewhere in this board's archives, I remember seeing another thread along these lines where the shop told the owner to tighten the ground wire connection to the frame (behind the starter cover) and that seemed to solve the problem. I haven't tried that yet myself, but it's on my list.

 

[dimitris]

Thank you Bill! Your post is really informative and we all should be aware of these infos.
In fact it is scary realizing that it could be the oil pump...

I opened the Breva ServiceMan and it is written:

DSB 03: Immobilizer fault (antenna broken, open or short circuit)
DSB 07: Oil sensor fault

The errors on my Dashboard are 03 and 07

Very Important:
On page 34 it is written:
The oil sensor fault is detected with engine stopped and key in ON position, if the sensor is not conducting (open circuit). The fault is indicated by lightening the warning "SERVICE" that will remain lit also with engine running.
Abnormal oil pressure is indicated with engine running at an rpm higher than 2000rpm and the sensor conducting (shorted). In this case the fault is indicated by lightening the "OilCan".


According to the above info of the service manual, since the RED LIGHT stays ON when key turns to ON position (without engine running) and with the "SERVICE" icon ON, that means that the problem is OIL SENSOR FAULT.

According to Bill Hagan's experience, the OIL PUMP could be damaged, WITHOUT the DASHBOARD showing the correct indication.


God! This is frightening....
Let's say I put a new sensor and the problem disappears..Could I be safe?

 

[dimitris]

crswa wrote:


Somewhere in this board's archives, I remember seeing another thread along these lines where the shop told the owner to tighten the ground wire connection to the frame (behind the starter cover) and that seemed to solve the problem. I haven't tried that yet myself, but it's on my list.[/quote]

where exactly is that spot Crswa?

 

[Bill Hagan]

dimitris wrote:

crswa wrote:


Somewhere in this board's archives, I remember seeing another thread along these lines where the shop told the owner to tighten the ground wire connection to the frame (behind the starter cover) and that seemed to solve the problem. I haven't tried that yet myself, but it's on my list.

dimitris wrote:

where exactly is that spot Crswa?

Remove the starter cover; that fastener is to the rear. As you have the service manual, it should show the location.

I also do not know if crswa referred to my post about that ground-wire connection, but I said something on that in the spring. Steelhorse Classics -- the (very fine) Guzzi dealer in Williamsburg, Virginia -- had done my 12K service in October 2007, and replaced the o/p sensor then. When I kept getting occasional repeats of what the replacement was to have resolved, I called and gave them the error codes. They, in turn, got a response from "Piaggio service techs in California" that the particular error code (sorry; I don't think I have the e/m anymore) had been found to result from that wire being loose.

I promptly checked it out and found it snug. FWIW, there is a warning label on that fastener about being VERY careful with not overtightening!

Again, sure hope my unpleasant adventure with a defective oil pump was a one-time event for Norge/B11's as it very well may be. And, yes, potentially, there is certainly a chance of a catastrophic crash following lockup. That said, do not wish unduly to scare anyone. Do NOT make to much of my anecdotal experiences as I relate them here, especially as to what lights appeared when. I may very well have some of that wrong, but believe what I said to be so or at least in the 90% arena.

I suppose my main point is that I and others agreed that the indicators were electronic or other sensing problems, when, in fact, at least in my case, there was something wrong with the oil pump and that "something' had been at play for some time.

I defer to the more knowledgeable folks here (which is virtually everyone ) to say whether there are readily available and practical ways of measuring oil pressure to rule out a defective oil pump.

Bill

 

[Bill Hagan]

One more thing (and some undoubtedly hope, my last!) on this issue. :laugh:

Whatever I remember -- or don't -- about what lights flashed and when before the oil pump failed, and what error codes appeared, I can say with certainty that I have had zero lights beyond the normal since MPH did the engine repair. That's more than 4K ago and the Norge runs great.

Bill

 

[londonrob]

Ive had Guzzis for years, T3s Spadas and recently a 1000S, and on all of them i've had to change the oil pressure switch.
This has been a weak link on Guzzis for years, but on my B11 I haven't had this problem.
Sorry to hear of the oil pump failure, I know how I'd feel if that was my bike.

 

[Bill Hagan]

Dimitris,

Just sent you a PM pretty much same as this, but will post here in case anyone else cares about this and finds it helpful:

If you want to pursue the ground wire at the rear of the starter as a possible cause of the error message, think you will get some help at pp. 74 - 77 in the service manual, but, as an unskilled wrench, I often find the parts manual easier to understand.

Go to pp. 45 & 61 in the parts manual if you have it. If not, it's on-line somewhere, tho might be hard to find just now with the archives almost inaccesible. Todd will get that back to us soon, but, in the meantime, if you do not have that and can't find it, email me and I'll send the pdf file.

Best wishes on resolving this vexing concern. As the saying goes ... "been there, done that."

And, yes, londonrob, I felt pretty shixxy about it, but it sure rides like a champ now, and the 90 days away made me appreciate it and my old EV even more. "It's an ill wind ...," etc.

Merry Christmas & a Guzzi New Year!

Καλά Χριστούγεννα και Ευτυχισμένο το Νέο Έτος!

Bill Hagan
wrhagan@earthlink.net

 

[dimitris]

Do you think, if the Axone is connected, that it will show the exact fault? (eg. oil pump) Or just the same as the dashboard indications?

 

[Brian UK]

crswa wrote:

I don't think this is a sensor issue simply because even a sensor in perfect condition is going to report low oil pressure when the engine isn't running. That is, a good sensor and a bad sensor are both going to report the same low oil pressure condition at zero RPMs. It's the computer's job to recognize that the engine isn't running and filter that signal out. This strikes me as a computer malfunction rather than a sensor problem.

When the engine is stationary ie. at start up, the oil pressure sensor switch should be closed, showing a short circuit. If it is faulty, and has a high resistance contact inside, then the ECU will flag it as faulty as it is not showing that short circuit.
Yes I know other faults can arise with those switches, as in the contacts not opening, keeping the warning light on, but that is not as dangerous as the case where the contacts don't close, so you could be without oil pressure, but without any warning.

 

[dimitris]

Brian UK wrote:

When the engine is stationary ie. at start up, the oil pressure sensor switch should be closed, showing a short circuit. If it is faulty, and has a high resistance contact inside, then the ECU will flag it as faulty as it is not showing that short circuit.
Yes I know other faults can arise with those switches, as in the contacts not opening, keeping the warning light on, but that is not as dangerous as the case where the contacts don't close, so you could be without oil pressure, but without any warning.[/quote]

In the latter situation, if the sensor would be changed (even without noticing that there is a fault, cause there would be no light-right?), the "no oil pressure problem" would be solved?
What exactly means "contacts don't close"?
Because if it refers to the sensor, then new sensor-no problem (or am I missing sth? :huh: :dry: )

 

[john zibell]

dimitris wrote:

Brian UK wrote:

When the engine is stationary ie. at start up, the oil pressure sensor switch should be closed, showing a short circuit. If it is faulty, and has a high resistance contact inside, then the ECU will flag it as faulty as it is not showing that short circuit.
Yes I know other faults can arise with those switches, as in the contacts not opening, keeping the warning light on, but that is not as dangerous as the case where the contacts don't close, so you could be without oil pressure, but without any warning.

In the latter situation, if the sensor would be changed (even without noticing that there is a fault, cause there would be no light-right?), the "no oil pressure problem" would be solved?
What exactly means "contacts don't close"?
Because if it refers to the sensor, then new sensor-no problem (or am I missing sth? :huh: :dry: )[/quote]

Dimitris,

The oil pressure sensor is a push to break type switch. With no oil pressure, there is continuity (closed position) and the oil pressure light will illuminate. Once you have pressure, the switch opens and the light goes out. If the switch is open with the engine not running, that is a sensor fault since it should be closed.