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Breva Runs Lean

GrahamNZ wrote:
Kev
Good to have that aspect put to bed.

Apart from the items I and others have listed as possible pinging causes I wonder if anyone has had experience with checking the crankshaft position sensor?? If that is out or faulty it could lead to incorrect ignition timing and consequent pinging. Oh, for the simplicity of distributor points!

Graham
Click to expand...

Interesting thought, but the sensor itself must be operating within parameters - otherwise it would have logged a trouble code no?

So if the sensor is sending the type of signals it is supposed to, then the sensor ITSELF wouldn't be the problem.

Now what does the sensor take it's reading's FROM, i.e. what part of the crankshaft or flywheel? Is it a reluctor, taking readings from a magnet or from a cutout in the metal component. The only way timing would be off then would be mechanically, if the magnet or cutout was in the wrong position - a mistake in machining. Unlikely, but possible I guess.

More importantly, as I've noted, I can make the problem go away at will, IF I CAN FIND A GAS STATION WITHOUT E-10 - it goes away INSTANTLY... If it were a sensor or timing wheel problem, it wouldn't go away. Right?

Well, unless the issue is that it's a SLIGHT mechanical problem, like borderline of spec, which is fine with conventional gas and exasperated by E10 - the fuel in that case is the straw that breaks the camel's back.

And honestly, that's what I'm thinking - I'm thinking that the stock mapping is just plain borderline too lean, with enough spark advance for performance, that when you add a E10 and wind up with an even leaner mixture, you're just plain moving out of the stock parameters enough to cause this.

Although I have no need/desire for a PCIII (or PCIV or PCV or whatever number they are up to now) from a performance perspective, I suspect I may have to add one if/when they finally have one for these bikes just from a rideability standpoint.

Kev
 
Kev,

Actually the Breva doesn't have a crank position sensor, but it does utilize a cam position sensor for timing purposes (phase) and to determine RPM. The air gap between the sensor and the toothed wheel (behind the camshaft sprocket) should be between 0.5 and 0.7mm. If it is less than 0.5, timing will be advanced, more than 0.7 timing will be retarded.
 
Kev
I guess the sensor could be OK but out of adjustment, as John explained, without sending an error code message. But from what you say it does sound like a fuel makeup problem if using different fuel makes the difference. Here, we're starting to get fuel with a proportion of bio-fuel in it but I've not noticed a problem.

John
Thanks for your explanation of the cam-position sensor. Now that you've reminded me I recall reading that in the manual. Recently I checked the crank-position sensor in my Buell which was enough of an access issue - removing a blanking plug and drilling out two pop-rivets - but getting to the Guzzi equivalent would be much worse.

Graham
 
John and Graham, thanks for the info.

Where is the cam sensor and how much work is it to gain access, I guess it couldn't hurt to check the air gap.

Heck, I know it's a little red-neck engineering, but it also couldn't hurt to adjust it slightly, try to move it JUST A HAIR wider (if that will retard timing slightly) and see if that would eliminate some of the knocking on E10... could be a temporary band-aid.

Kev
 
Kev,

The sensor is on the left front of the engine, near the top. The sensor has the cable come out at a 90 degree angle so it doesn't look like the oil pressure switch. Not hard to get at, but you may have difficulty getting a clear path for a vernier caliper.
 
Just looked at mine on the Norge, should be easy to reach with a long socket extension.
For the purposes of experiment, I wouldn't think there would be any need to measure the gap, just add a thin paper gasket under it and put it back. That will retard the timing a bit,surely? Normal 80gm paper is about 0.09mm thick.
 
Brian UK wrote:
Just looked at mine on the Norge, should be easy to reach with a long socket extension.
For the purposes of experiment, I wouldn't think there would be any need to measure the gap, just add a thin paper gasket under it and put it back. That will retard the timing a bit,surely? Normal 80gm paper is about 0.09mm thick.
Click to expand...

So it just bolts in place, there is no "adjustment" per se, without shimming it. Yes?

I might try and put a piece of paper in there as an experiment.

I got the Breva out for a short ride yesterday (to the office and back again) for the first time since I serviced it last week - temps in the mid 60's (F) - so just a touch below 20C.

She was pinging lightly even pulling away from a dead stop with medium throttle :angry:
 
Kev M wrote:
She was pinging lightly even pulling away from a dead stop with medium throttle :angry:[/quote]
Kev
There is definitely something wrong with your bike. Even on kerosene it shouldn't ping that easily.
Is the bike still under warranty? What does your dealer reckon about the issue?

Graham
 
GrahamNZ wrote:
Kev M wrote:
She was pinging lightly even pulling away from a dead stop with medium throttle :angry:
Click to expand...
Kev
There is definitely something wrong with your bike. Even on kerosene it shouldn't ping that easily.
Is the bike still under warranty? What does your dealer reckon about the issue?

Graham
Click to expand...

Bike is still under warranty until about October.

Dealer is about 350 miles away. :huh:

But last time I was there, IT WASN'T PINGING - because I go through the western part of PA where I can get non-E10 fuel.

My only resort would be to find a more local dealer - like FBF (Fast By Ferracci) but I'm not thrilled at the prospect.
 
Just popping into this old thread to say that my final solution to the B11 Pinging seems to have been a Guzzitech Reflash.

Everything else we tried eventually failed.

Running it with octane boost and/or non-E10 fuel, Tuning by Eraldo Ferracci, Attempts to reload the maps by Pete Roper etc etc etc.

Many things seemed to work for a short time, but would pinging would come back.

I've now got about 500 miles or so on the reflash and it seems to have really made a huge difference.
 
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