Breva swing arm and carc

[iainw]

I thought I'd get stuck into greasing the swing arm bearings today as I'd planned to do it sometime over the next couple of months. I found it a fairly straight forward job getting everything apart but this is what I found.


I'm glad I found it when I did as it hadn't started to drip yet, come February I'll need the bike almost every weekend so I can't do to have it off the road then.

The oil has only been in for 1500 miles and look at the state of it!


I'm thinking the unit will go to the local dealer; this job looks a step too far for my basic skills.

A couple of things I hope this community can help me with. How do I get the brake pipe clips out of the CARC and swing arm? The service manual says they unscrew and shows a chap with a driver but there's no slot. I've removed the pipe clip but the bit that goes to the metal won't budge without being a fraction away from breaking.

The cardan shaft is still hanging onto the gearbox output shaft, how do I get it off? It slides back and forth on the shaft about 1-2mm but comes to a hard stop as if there's a circlip or something holding it in place but I can't see anything that would stop it from sliding straight off.

The swing arm is off and here's the state of the bearings, I planned to just grease them but they're beyond saving, they'll need replacing.


Big problem now, how do I get these out, what’s the tool of choice? Due to their shape and location I can’t get a drift behind the small edge to whack ‘em out. Also, the one on the RHS still has the cardan shaft in the way.

 

[nel]

hi how many miles has your b11 done? I'm useless with spanners but changing the brown carc seal was easy. The Carc pulled off in one heave after undoing the bolts though to change the seal it can be left in situ. Rather than scratch the carc I drilled a small 4mm whole in the middle of the old brown seal then hooked the seal out using the hole. The new seal just pushes in. you can use the BMW equivenlent half the price of the guzzi. Haven't done my swingarm bearings yet.

 

[iainw]

It's done 25,000 miles. I did consider that, until I drained the oil, but with the oil being the colour it is and only 1500 miles since it was last changed would the bearing behind the seal be on its way out?

 

[pyoungbl]

There is a groove on the output shaft on the transmission and a matching clip inside the Cardan shaft. It took some persuading with my small ball peen hammer but suddenly the shaft started moving and...viola! I guess you could also use a wedge between the U-joint and the output shaft to force them apart.

As I recall, Pete Roper said he got the swingarm bearing cones out by cutting them with a Dremel tool.

 

[Rafael]

Here's a recent tread on the subject https://www.guzzitech.com/forum/196/9590.html

Pete Roper also started a thread on the CARC, it's worth the search. I guided me to get my whole new CARC under warranty.

I rotated the wheel a little at a time and check for play at each increment and found play in the bearing in some spots. My leak was bigger though, enough to cause a puddle on the wheel rim.

 

[iainw]

There is a groove on the output shaft on the transmission and a matching clip inside the Cardan shaft. It took some persuading with my small ball peen hammer but suddenly the shaft started moving and...viola! I guess you could also use a wedge between the U-joint and the output shaft to force them apart.

So that I understand this correctly. With a bit of force in the correct place they will come apart. Is it a spring clip that when they are put back together it will click in place and lock back on again, or will forcing them apart break the clip and it then slides on and off and is not locked in place anymore?

 

[Kevin.NZ]

When I removed the shaft from my Breva I used a 200mm copper rod as a drift, held it against the U joint and gave the rod a sharp, firm tap with a hammer and it came off easy. The circlip will not be damaged and stays in place inside the U joint. Eyeball it to make sure. To refit it I took the back end of the CARC off (because you'll have difficulty refitting the end U joint)
I slid the U joint onto the gearbox O/P shaft and holding it all parallel gave the other end a sharp knock with a copper hammer and it went on easy, give it a tug to make sure. Refit the CARC.

 

[pyoungbl]

Here's a photo showing the clip inside the U-joint:

And this photo shows the output shaft with groove (although that's not what I was trying to photograph):

The clip is reusable.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Yah. It's important that you get to these early in my book, the linkage bearings too. They simply are assembled without much grease.

I ground the outer races with a cutting wheel on a dremmel and then used a long marlinspike from the other side as a punch. There are two slots in the register on which the race sits. You can get the tip of a spike in. Because I'm going to have to do this a lot I'm going to get a puller made up.

Be aware there are seals in the inside of the frame holes the spindle comes through that are prone to falling out. Replacement is the best bet or glue them in with errr. Glue!

Pete

 

[pyoungbl]

Pete,
When you get that puller made up, how 'bout posting a photo. I tried using a bearing puller that one of the auto places loaned me but it just would not grab the cone. The slots were too shallow or the jaws were too fat. As you know, there ain't enough clearance to push them out with a drift. My dealer quoted a price of only $16 for each bearing set and, like you, I can't find another supplier who has the bearing with seal so that's the route I am taking.

Peter Y.

 

[nel]

I wouldn't change the carc bearing unless it had obviously failed. A bmw seal from moto-bins is cheap don't worry about the colour of the oil.

 

[Penis Rotor]

I wouldn't change the carc bearing unless it had obviously failed. A bmw seal from moto-bins is cheap don't worry about the colour of the oil.

Erm? Sorry, I would REALLY worry about the colour of the oil. Unless someone has put some form of moly additive in it it looks severely contaminated/damaged.

My guess is that either this is a bike that should of had the CARC replaced but never has or it has just got another issue that has led to a bearing failure. On the few occasions I have seen later CARC units with failed bearings, in all cases but one the result of water contamination, there was not usually detectable play in the rear wheel or any other *External* evidence if damage. Close examination of the bearing once the seal is out is very difficult. The only real way to be sure is to split the CARC, remove the big bearing and examine it closely with a magnifying glass in bright light.

Yes, you can simply re-seal it and hope. I really wouldn't advise it though unless you wish to risk destroying a very expensive component or worse yet injury.

Pete

 

[iainw]

Thanks for all the replies, it's been very interesting.

With regard to the CARC, I've been in touch with the local dealer and Guzzi UK and they say there are no outstanding recalls on my bike, the frame number is within the range for the recall but the CARC number is way out. The bulletin says prior to 003171, mine is 008542, so I guess it's had its replacement.

Pete, I can confirm that the oil has not had any additives in it, I got the bike 3 years ago and it only had 1800 miles on it, I have changed all the oils every 6k miles and both gear boxes have had fully synth 75w-90 each time, though at every drain I have considered that the out coming CARC oil was a tad dirty. This oil is only 1500 miles old and it’s the worst that has come out of there, I can't explain why it's starting to fail. From your experience what parts usually fail and need replacing, would it be the seal and just the large bearing, or both bearings. Thanks.

I have reached the limit of my poor engineering skills and experience tells me that if I go any further with the CARC or the swing arm bearings I'm going to make a mess of something. I'm OK with a spanner and screwdriver but when it comes to cutting and bashing things go wrong. I have decided I'll put it all back together and take it to the local dealer to be fixed.

I've been greasing the suspension linkage every winter and these bearings still look OK, once the swing arm bearings are replaced I'll add them to the winter clean and grease schedule. Oh, thanks also for explaining how the shaft connects, I'll knock it off and give that a bit of a grease before everything goes back together.

Cheers,
Iain

 

[iainw]

I've had a few phone calls with my local dealer and I have decided I'd have a go at fixing the CARC myself. I’ve ordered a reasonably priced quality bearing and a seal off tinternet and noticed there were two options for the bearing, an ordinary one and a C3, the online shop gave this explanation for C3 ...C3 bearings have additional internal radial clearances to allow expansion in high speed / temperature environments. Typically suited to hot and high speed environments (fans, high speed motors etc). They can feel loose until at running temperature and speed. They are unsuitable where critical alignment is required from the onset.. Not what I wanted, so I opted for the standard 6917 (same as a 61917).

Anyhow.... I followed Pete's instructions and dismantling the unit was very straight forward, the very nice man at my local garage agreed to push out the CARC with his press and everything came out as Pete said it would. I’ve had a close look at the bearing and no wonder it’s starting to fail! :evil:

The new bits will be here next week so it will be weekend before I can put it back together. I couldn't get any Threebond 1211 locally but have found the equivalent, Loctite 574 and their website has a good little video which confirmed this is the right product for this job.

 

[iainw]

The bearing and seal arrived, the new one is a SKF 61917 and the seal is a 10mm R23 viton. I deviated slightly from Pete's rebuild instructions in that I heated the bearing and it just dropped on to the shaft, when it cooled I heated the LH cover and pushed that in place, there was no need to have it pressed back on. I put the Loctite 574 on as described in their video, heated up the RH cover and pushed that on. In with all the screws and tightened it up.

It really was a very straight forward job and thanks to Pete's instructions I'd recommend that anyone having a big bearing failure in the CARC should have a go at it themselves.

Now I need to have a good look at the swing arm bearings and get the cups out of the frame.

 

[Roblatt]

Now I need to have a good look at the swing arm bearings and get the cups out of the frame.

Any chance of pics of the tear down process? If it's not too much trouble. It'd be good to now of the hidden obstacles.

 

[iainw]

I’ve not got much in the way of pics because it’s already in bits but here’s some step by step instructions, they’re from memory so there might be one or two steps missing. Hope they’re helpful.

Get it strapped up and make it safe!

Remove the silencer; you’ll have a lot more room to work.
Remove the hugger if you’ve got one.
Loosen the wheel nuts.
Remove the rear calliper and fasten it up out of the way.
Remove both plastic side panels that are above the foot rest plates.
Remove the RH foot rest side plate, there are 4 screws, a petrol breather pipe to disconnect and the brake light wiring to unclip.
The lot can then come away in one unit with the calliper.
Put the bottom 2 screws back through the centre stand plates immediately. Do this on the LHS too, if you don’t, the stand will twist on its mount and the bike is likely to fall over! This is only to show the screws, the swing arm is already removed in the pic.

Remove the gear lever cover.
Remove the gear lever.
Undo the 4 screws holding the plate and push the gear lever shaft through, don’t lose the washer and O ring.
Remove the plate and put the bottom two bolts back through the holes as you did on the other side.
Chock the wheel and undo and remove the suspension linkage. You can regrease the needle roller bearings whilst it’s all out.
Support the carc with some blocks of wood and remove the rear wheel.
Undo the carc tie arm and tie it up out of the way.
Check to see if the carc seal is leaking. :shock:

At this point I removed the carc from the swinger, there are only 4 bolts holding it on.
Remove the two tie wraps on the boot where the swinger hinges.
On the LHS of the swinger loosen the 2 clamping screws.
Loosen the ring nut with a C spanner or tap it round with a drift.
The shaft is removed with a 14mm hex. If you have removed the carc then this next bit will be a bit easier because it’s lighter and more manageable. If it’s still on the swinger then you might want someone to hold it for you when you pull the shaft out.
Once the shaft is out you can pull the swinger away, the cardan shaft will stay on the gearbox output shaft due to a circlip holding it in place. See earlier in this thread for more detail but a good tap in the right place will get the shaft off.
You can now pull the races out and have a look at the poor state they’re bound to be in.

So, that’s where I’m up to. I need to get these cups out of the frame. The new bearings and seals are on order, they’ll be a couple of weeks.

 

[Roblatt]

Thanks for the description. It's very informative and I can almost visualize the process. It's summer here so this is one to save for the winter.

cheers

Robert

 

[iainw]

I was reluctant to take a cutting implement to the bearing shells, I don't have one anyway, so I put it all back together and took it to the dealer on Thusday to let them work their magic on it. That's another job out of the way, next one is the steering bearings, they got picked up on as an advisory in the MOT as being a bit notchy.

New bearings and seals arrived today, Steering Kit 22-1039.
http://shop.marksman-ind.com/steering-kit-22-1039-1326-p.asp

It's not been good for bearings in my Guzzi this year. I'll have replaced front wheel, carc, swing arm and steering. I hope the new lot last longer than 25k miles.