Convince Me

[X1Glider]

I gave a quick intro to me a few days ago because I was interested in a Stelvio NTX. I signed up because I knew I'd have some questions. Now, after a few days of scouring the posts, looking for potential problems I finally have some questions.

First, I need to say that I was an early adopter of the Buell brand and had 6 in all. So, I'm used to dealing with a total lack of dealer and manufacturer support if a problem arises. I'm talking '91. Same with parts availability and lack of trained technicians. Even a couple BMWs gave me issues with the warranty department and found that techs weren't necessarily up to date with the latest tech. So, I'm used to doing my own work. But the older I get and the hotter it gets in Texas, I'm looking to do less of it. Repairs anyway. Would rather maintain it than fix it. Even moreso, I'd rather be riding it.

So, I'm reading about things like water in the CARC rear end, not completely waterproof Trax cases, kinda low power dyno runs (up to 27% parasitic loss) and apparently 10 mpg less than BMW's R-equivalent which also makes 10-15 RWHP more. What else? Possibly needing a VDSTS or Axone when it's time to synch TBs to reset the TPS. (something I never needed to do on the BMWs) Not sure if a PC-V is compatable with the dual O2 sensors yet. Bazzazz isn't an option. Parts seem to cost more than BMW.

How is the market for upgrading performance? How about the ease of it? I never upgraded the BMWs. The bang for the buck wasn't there. Example, to get 3 more peak HP, it was going to cost a minimum of $1800. But you also would lose 3 HP in the midrange across a 4000 rpm spread. Another $1000 to fix that. Wasn't worth it.

Now, mechanically, a lot of stuff I'm reading about isn't too big a deal. What I hate is when the electronics get in the way of me being able to do a proper job in my own garage. I like to consider the total cost of ownership when buying a bike. That means what else am I spending money on after the sale?

Can i get some input from 8V CARC owners who do their own wrenching? What has your reliability been like? Ease of maintaining? Cost of parts? Access to a shop/dealer? MPG? Things I need to look forward to?

If anyone has owned BMW R bikes before, can compare you ownership experience to each other?

I'm a daily commuter, rare weekend rider and long distance tourer, so I do between 14-18k miles/year and I ride fast and hard everywhere, no lazy putt-putting along riding here. So durability and good fuel mileage is important to me. I also ride in frog stranglers. When hurricane season comes, I'm still riding out the dirty end of the storm. The HDs, Buells and Beemers have been flawless in the hurricane induced rain.

I am very intrigued by the NTX, features I require are there and nothing I don't need, price is right and it seems it will suit my riding needs... but as I have zero experience with the brand, I need some reassurances and insights.

Hopefully in the next couple weeks, I'll be able to see one in person at MPH.

 

[dldeano]

15k miles in a bit over a year with no issues on my 'home maintained' 2010. I am very happy with the bike and as long as she keeps plugging along she will be a garage fixture for a long time to come.

Other than buggering up the threads of a drain plug (my fault) the bike hasn't needed anything that wasn't scheduled. Valve checks/adjustments take 2-3 beers, and the rest 6k service entails draining 3 fluids and replacing them It does go to the dealer every other service for the TPS reset/TB synch. They charge me a diagnostic fee (usually 1/2 hr labor) so I have never used VDSTS or other. The dash can pull an assortment of error codes, if needed.

CARC water ingress seems to be a real issue, so I just keep additional fluid on hand (it takes ~370mL) and swap it before service time if we get drenched. Haven't noticed anything too funny as of yet...but it is cheap insurance.

Only issue that I can't sort, but can ride around, is low RPM/high load pinging when she gets HOT. ECU re-flash cures it, and Todd here has a host of other hop-up options that are available.

I had a Ulysses, and this is a different bike I like for the same reasons.

 

[Pascal]

You don't need convincing, you know you like the bike.
As for the end drive, I have a lot more faith in those then the ones on the Beamers.
I have 23K miles on my Griso and my CARC is flawless after hard riding.
I do all my maintenance as I trust no dealer (First Guzzi for me).
The gas mileage gets a lot better after break in on those bikes too, did it on my G12.
I don't know what HP BMW advertises but I haven't seen a boxer mill with more grunt than my 8V, especially when you hit 5500rpm.
Shouldn't matter though, because if you want HP you need to be on a Multistrada or Explorer...
Guzzis are still simplistic to maintain and it's a plus.

 

[X1Glider]

You don't need convincing, you know you like the bike.
As for the end drive, I have a lot more faith in those then the ones on the Beamers.
I have 23K miles on my Griso and my CARC is flawless after hard riding.
I do all my maintenance as I trust no dealer (First Guzzi for me).
The gas mileage gets a lot better after break in on those bikes too, did it on my G12.
I don't know what HP BMW advertises but I haven't seen a boxer mill with more grunt than my 8V, especially when you hit 5500rpm.
Shouldn't matter though, because if you want HP you need to be on a Multistrada or Explorer...
Guzzis are still simplistic to maintain and it's a plus.

You're right. I really don't need convincing. I want it. I just needed somereassurance that I'll get to ride it more than I'll wrench on it. I've done that before.

My R1100GS dynod at 76 RWHP and the R1100S at 82 RWHP from a claimed 99 at the crank. I thought these were not only adequate HP numbers but it was how it was delivered that was most satisfying. The new R1200 series dynos between 90-97 RWHP depending on the model it's in. They advertise between 105-110 crank HP.

Not interested at all in the Multi. But I have considered the Xplorer. Originally I wanted the 800XC but no shaft or tubeless spoked wheels broke the deal. Same with the 800GS. I didn't want another big Beemer.

Like everyone else in the USA, I'm waiting to see the NTX in person. All 5 coming to MPH are spoken for but I'm hoping they'll crank it up for me at least and let me push some buttons and twist the grip, even sitting still.

 

[X1Glider]

Only issue that I can't sort, but can ride around, is low RPM/high load pinging when she gets HOT. ECU re-flash cures it, and Todd here has a host of other hop-up options that are available.

Riding like that is a horrible idea. The fuel stays in contact longer with the surfaces of the combustion chanber and cylinder walls. That's how detonation occurs and it usually happens right around B.D.C. just before the compression stoke starts.

Only issue that I can't sort, but can ride around, is low RPM/high load pinging when she gets HOT. ECU re-flash cures it, and Todd here has a host of other hop-up options that are available.

I had a Ulysses, and this is a different bike I like for the same reasons.

The Ulysses would have been on my list if it weren't for the fuel in frame. I much prefer the tube frame line. All my Buells were the most fun I've had on 2 wheels. Such a shame that most riders just didn't "get it." Highly underrated bikes IMO.

 

[X1Glider]

Regarding the Trax cases, does anyone know how and where water intrusion is happening? At the rivets? At the lid seal?

As for water in the CARC, is it just entering the breather or somewhere else? I've seen 5 different make final drives before. None of them had a breather so I have no idea why the Guzzi needs one.

 

[Penis Rotor]

The fuel stays in contact longer with the surfaces of the combustion chanber and cylinder walls. That's how detonation occurs and it usually happens right around B.D.C. just before the compression stoke starts.

Now there's an interesting theory!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry but that's one of the most deranged explanations for the reason why and how detonation occurs I've ever heard. Excellent!!!

Pete

 

[X1Glider]

The fuel stays in contact longer with the surfaces of the combustion chanber and cylinder walls. That's how detonation occurs and it usually happens right around B.D.C. just before the compression stoke starts.

Now there's an interesting theory!!! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm sorry but that's one of the most deranged explanations for the reason why and how detonation occurs I've ever heard. Excellent!!!

Pete

When you dump too much fuel in at such a low rpm, it doesn't atomize as quickly as it should. So the unvaporized droplets absorb heat from the hot surfaces and prematurely combust rather than properly mix with incoming air. Not new information. Plenty of papers have been published on this.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Excellent! Carry on.

 

[fatal]

Regarding the Trax cases, does anyone know how and where water intrusion is happening? At the rivets? At the lid seal?
As for water in the CARC, is it just entering the breather or somewhere else? I've seen 5 different make final drives before. None of them had a breather so I have no idea why the Guzzi needs one.

I'm on my second Stelvio since May 2009, both bikes fitted with TRAX panniers, no leaks as I remember, or water in CARC either. I did have a slight misfire during ownership of the first bike, but that was easily cured by fitting NGK plug caps. The speedo sensor failed in heavy rain, a new one was fitted under warranty and was sealed with clear silicone sealant. Thats it in three years and 12500mls approx.

 

[davem]

I jumped off a BMW R1100s onto a Guzzi 1200 Breva with only 75bhp at the rear wheel but the engine was a lot nicer to use with none of the BM's vibration at high rpm. When in thrashing mode I'm happy to rev it towards the redline continously which I wouldn't do on the BM so in real world speeds there was nothing in it.
Things have moved on now with the Guzzi 8V and BMW 1200 engines. Both makes have suffrered more problems than with the older models. BMW have lost that reputation for reliablity and are trading on the name and dealer back up to keep things going, successfully of course.
In the U.K. the 8V Stelvios have been eating camshafts at 12000 miles. Piaggio are standing by owners even when out of warranty But the dealer network has struggled to cope and I'm still not sure if the real problem has been made public. If I was buying one I would want plenty of reassurances first.

 

[X1Glider]

Dave, that's information I need to hear. I am aware that BMW has had plenty of issues since releasing the hex head 1200s. Guzzi, I wouldn't know. But lots of OEMs are too. Perhaps it's all the corner cutting and 3rd world labor for financial reasons in order to compete in today's economy.

Along with the small dealer network, I also had a bit of a worry of wether or not the Guzzi engineering is up to the same quality as larger manufacturers. Being such a small company, are they able to spec components of the same quality and durability, because obviously, Guzzi doesn't have the engineering resources as a larger OEM who also has ties to the automotive field where experience and knowledge can be drawn from. And if this is the case, Guzzi standing by their product and resolving any issues I encounter is paramount. This is something I had issue with even with BMW on one occasion and it was a big issue.

I'm still going to try and run by RMP this week and see the NTX in the flesh.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Of course, Piaggio are a tiny backyard company with no engineering experience to speak of. Please....

Pete

 

[scottmastrocinque]

Hang on a sec, I need my boots to protect me from the insane amount of B.S. being spread here...

"As the fourth largest producer of scooters and motorcycles in the world, Piaggio produces more than 600,000 vehicles annually, with five research and development centers, more than 6,700 employees and operations in over 50 countries."

Yeah, sounds terribly schlocky to me...I'm amazed they can build a frigging thing. :roll:

 

[Pascal]

LOL, this is rich...
SNL has nothing on us!!

 

[PP-1753]

If you want it - get it! So simple, so much talk achieves nothing. We all love them otherwise we wouldn't be here now would we?

 

[scottmastrocinque]

If you want it - get it! So simple, so much talk achieves nothing. We all love them otherwise we wouldn't be here now would we?

And Bob's your uncle!

 

[davem]

Buying a new bike is harder than it used to be. New technology doesn't seemed to have reduced the problems and in fact as I have stated BMW have actually gone backwards in this area.Triumph are having their fair share of problems and these days and nothing seems cheap to fix.
I repeat, the problem Guzzi faced in the U.K. with the 8v camshafts was the dealer network struggling to cope with the work load and their relationship with Piaggio wasn't the best at times. It was a real issue with the owners club stepping in to help resolve the problem, not good if you are stuck with a Stelvio off the road.
I love my Guzzi but let's be honest they have a cottage industry dealer network which can be caught lacking at times.
A good friend who is a avid Guzzi owner and spends months touring Canada (he lives in the U.K.) couldn't bring himself to take his Stelvio on his latest trip and traded it for a Super Tenere.
Would I buy a new Guzzi? Yes, but like all makes I would do plenty of homework first and buy with my eyes wide open.

 

[X1Glider]

Hang on a sec, I need my boots to protect me from the insane amount of B.S. being spread here...

"As the fourth largest producer of scooters and motorcycles in the world, Piaggio produces more than 600,000 vehicles annually, with five research and development centers, more than 6,700 employees and operations in over 50 countries."

Yeah, sounds terribly schlocky to me...I'm amazed they can build a frigging thing. :roll:

You make the assumption that because MG is under the Piaggio umbrella that technologies and engineering is automatically shared and implemented across all business units. The usual motive is to buy the company, streamline it's operations and hopefully make it profitable.

Keep in mind Piaggio only bought MG in 2004. And they purchased MG (and Laverda) by way of purchasing MG's owner, Aprilia. However, they appear to still function as a small, handmade, boutique brand with all the charm built in. MG has never strived to achieve technical superiority. And Piaggio appears to be more interested in increasing market share in developing nations than in achieving technical superiority in richer but much smaller markets.

So, to suggest that Piaggio has somehow taken over MGs engineering/R&D department seems naiive. It hasn't escaped my vision that MG still operates production and engineering in an old world manner, regardless of the big money backing them.

 

[john zibell]

Too much bantering here. This thread is now locked.