Ethanol controversy in the US

[john zibell]

Apparently some engine manufactures are claiming going to 15% Ethanol in gasoline will damage their engines. Not sure if it would impact older Guzzis except for the floats.

Full article here.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/112160309.html

 

[Wistrick]

I don't remember ever voting that I wanted Ethanol in my gas in the @ 10% let alone 15%....we live in a democracy how come I haven't seen any votes on this matter...I am tired of the government telling me what is best for me....

Dan

 

[RJVB]

Hah, we've had the discussion here, with the government introducing the so-called E10 (10% ethanol in SP95, up from the current 5%). Many manufacturers warned against it, and Germany actually reversed the introduction due to too many incompatible vehicles on the market.

It's not the engine itself that's the most vulnerable, at least not to 10%, but rather the fuel lines, tanks, and of course a bunch of seals (including those in the engine).

Latest I heard, the current Guzzi line-up is 100% compatible with 10% ethanol in fuel, but I'll still tank up on SP98 instead of E10.

 

[Cat City Rider]

"Latest I heard, the current Guzzi line-up is 100% compatible with 10% ethanol in fuel, but I'll still tank up on SP98 instead of E10."

Sadly, we don't have any choice.

 

[Holt]

Hah, we've had the discussion here, with the government introducing the so-called E10 (10% ethanol in SP95, up from the current 5%). Many manufacturers warned against it, and Germany actually reversed the introduction due to too many incompatible vehicles on the market.

It's not the engine itself that's the most vulnerable, at least not to 10%, but rather the fuel lines, tanks, and of course a bunch of seals (including those in the engine).

Latest I heard, the current Guzzi line-up is 100% compatible with 10% ethanol in fuel, but I'll still tank up on SP98 instead of E10.

- and I've used the standard 95 E5 or maybe 10 gas (filled in most EU-countries) since the bike was new in 2003. No problems so far.

 

[GuzziMoto]

The question of whether or not adding more ethanol into gas is a good thing aside, I have been using E10 for many years now with no issues. There is a lot of mis-information, likely on both sides of the argument. What I do know is that after years of using gas with ethanol in it I have not had a problem caused by the ethanol.
And as I understand it they are talking about making it an optional grade of fuel so that you would have a choice to use the E15 or not.
I am so tired of hearing about this.

 

[Goose]

The question of whether or not adding more ethanol into gas is a good thing aside, I have been using E10 for many years now with no issues. There is a lot of mis-information, likely on both sides of the argument. What I do know is that after years of using gas with ethanol in it I have not had a problem caused by the ethanol.
And as I understand it they are talking about making it an optional grade of fuel so that you would have a choice to use the E15 or not.
I am so tired of hearing about this.

My 1998 truck lost 10% mileage with 10% ethanol. I go some real 92 octane and mileage and power returned. I have not tuned for 10% ethanol. Power was tested on a dyno with gas and 10%.

Maybe newer or low mileage vehicles do not realize the degradation?

 

[GuzziMoto]

Ethanol has less energy per unit then gasoline, so it stands to reason that if you add it to fuel in a vehicle setup to run on straight gasoline then you will get less miles per gallon. Now, some modern engines are tuned to take advantage of the ethanol better and so may not suffer as much but I don't think you can fully take advantage of the ethanol and still be able to run on gasoline. And even if you did the reduced energy content would still mean less miles per gallon. They don't add ethanol to improve mileage. And it doesn't.

 

[vivo]

James Parker wrote an interesting article where he states it takes one unit of energy to manufacture one unit of energy as Ethanol... so it takes the same energy to make a fuel from CORN that is created... We waste one unit of energy for every unit of energy made... duhhh how can that be smart? So by making Ethanol from CORN we are putting money in the pockets of certain interests but not getting any benefits... The tax payers after making this possible with their tax dollars, get treated to a $.45 cent surcharge given to the oil companies to add an alcohol fuel made from food that ruins fuel systems and tanks used in many boats and causes a LOSS in fuel mileage in our cars and bikes! Now if we made the fuel from sugar cane it would create 8 times the energy it takes to make the fuel...

Big money IS in control not common sense or science...

vivo

 

[GuzziMoto]

Most estimates I have read do not put it at an even 1 to 1 ratio but it does take nearly as much energy to make ethanol as you get out of it. And corn is not the best choice for making ethanol. But until they come up with a better source with a more powerful lobby....
Also, the energy in vs. energy out ratio is not as black and white as some seem to think. You also have to take into account where the energy put in comes from and whether it is renewable energy or not.
But in the end I agree, corn based ethanol is at best a stop gap measure and a better source will hopefully be found.

Funny side note.....
Now that NASCAR has switched to ethanol blend race gas they are reportedly getting more power but less mpg's......

 

[john zibell]

James Parker wrote an interesting article where he states it takes one unit of energy to manufacture one unit of energy as Ethanol... so it takes the same energy to make a fuel from CORN that is created... We waste one unit of energy for every unit of energy made... duhhh how can that be smart? So by making Ethanol from CORN we are putting money in the pockets of certain interests but not getting any benefits... The tax payers after making this possible with their tax dollars, get treated to a $.45 cent surcharge given to the oil companies to add an alcohol fuel made from food that ruins fuel systems and tanks used in many boats and causes a LOSS in fuel mileage in our cars and bikes! Now if we made the fuel from sugar cane it would create 8 times the energy it takes to make the fuel...

Big money IS in control not common sense or science...

vivo

Not only that, but we currently have the lowest corn reserve in years. This is driving up food costs, not just for corn, but the animals corn feeds. If we are going to make ethanol, it needs to be from a sugar or cellulose source that isn't a feed item, or is a by product of an existing process. The current model is self defeating.

 

[Cat City Rider]

Hmm...Has hemp been considered? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

 

[Mi_ka]

...and drop those catalysts! :silly:

 

[john zibell]

Hmm...Has hemp been considered? :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:

Probably, but saw grass would make a good choice, as would the left over pulp from production of sugar from sugar beets.

 

[Farleys]

Hi,
Some experts are arguing that if ethanol be used as fuel then food prices will go up and it would be more difficult
for the government to control food prices.....
What do you guys say?????????

 

[john zibell]

Hi,
Some experts are arguing that if ethanol be used as fuel then food prices will go up and it would be more difficult
for the government to control food prices.....
What do you guys say?????????

I believe that to be true except for teh government control part of your statement. It is basic supply and demand. If more of the food item (say corn) is used to produce ethanol the remaining supply available for food is less. Since the demand is the same and the available supply for that use is less, the price rises.