Griso 8V baffles - better out!

[Drew]

Experiment is complete. Despite what others may have assumed, I have proven that my 2009 Griso performs far better without the baffle in. It is most likely due to my setup:

-Open airbox
-K&N filter
-Mistral carbon exhaust
-Todd's race ECU

With the baffles in, the bike just can't seem to breathe well. It is not very apparent at low RPM, but as soon as the bike really starts to sing, performance goes downhill in a hurry. The bike gasps and won't rev past 6.5k RPM - ever! Regardless of gear (in case anyone was curious). It stutters at this point and behaves almost as if it hit a rev limiter (rev limiter is 8.5K, I believe). Once I got home, I took the baffle out (again) to find an accumulation of soot in the pipe, too. I've done this little test a couple times to validate my original findings, and this latest one just confirms them beyond a reasonable doubt.

Once the baffle is removed, she will willingly rev to the limiter and pull in a very fluid and linear fashion. No coughing, no stuttering - just clean power.

-Drew

 

[Mark111]

Drew,
Don’t want to be argumentative but if it won’t rev past 6500 r/min with the Mistral on and baffle in, it would seem to me that there may be some other issue at play. The standard muffler would be more restrictive than a Mistral so the question is, is there some problem with your specific baffle unit that is causing an abnormal restriction. Have you tried another baffle from another similar Mistral can.
There are many 8v engines on this forum that use a multitude of after market pipes including Mistral and have never reported a problem with the engine failing to rev out.
I have had 2 different mufflers on mine a Staintune and a QuatD and neither have inhibited the engine reving to the redline, with the baffle in or out.
What is clearly evident in my case is that the engine runs more evenly with the 68 map at low revs with the baffle in, with out any perceptible impact on outright performance and the engine easily hits the rev limiter.
Your description:
"will willingly rev to the limiter and pull in a very fluid and linear fashion. No coughing, no stuttering - just clean power"
is exactly how I would describe mine with the baffle in using either muffler.

Have you been able to measure the horsepower with all of the mods in place and baffle out to see what difference there is from the stock setup, it would be interesting to know what outright performance gains you have made.

Your findings are interesting in light of the prior experience of others.

Mark

 

[Ad B]

Hi Drew,

I also have a G12.
And also with a Mistral exhaust. However, I have the high rise version on my bike.
Looking very good, but the Mistral db killer is also a Hp killer B) .
In the beginning of our season, I took my G12 to the "gym", he had a personal trainer for the afternoon.
My G12 was allowed to play on a powerbench for several hours... :lol:
My G12 also has a open (BMC) filter configeration,
Ruud (his personal trainer...) added a "Rapid bike easy" to adjust the mapping.
We started with 92 Hp at the rear wheel, my G woudn't go beyond 7500 Rpm.
The massive dip in his torque curve was gone already, deu to the open air filterbox.
After some adjustments Ruud workes about 100 Hp out of my G, but stil not so good at high Rpm.
We removed the Db killer and Ruud adjusted some more.
My normaly so friendly G12 changed in a violent one, at higher Rpm.
The G flew in a few seconds from 2500 Rpm to 8500 Rpm and threw 112 (!!) real wheel Hps on the bench.
Now it's an animal, a real beast.
I can drive him as a cheep :huh: .
Nice and easy, not more than 5500 Rpm. It's a very friendly bike.
But I can drive him as a beast, as a real wolf... :whistle:
He wheelys out of a corner, screeming towards the 8500 Rpm mark and going very quickly, very fast... :mrgreen:

When you want to see what your bike is doing, you have to measure.
Your feeling cán be good, but measuring is always better...
And a nice curve is looking good along the pictures of your kids on the chimney... :silly:

Ad B

 

[nel]

If you compare a mistral baffle holes sizes with another brand on utube video you do see that a mistral has much smaller holes and is restrictive as oem with baffle. I have a xover and mistral on my 1100 and its sound glorious with out baffle, great for filtering every one knows i'm there.

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

Mr. Dyno, Ruud Fredriks from Goes Holland did the testing and adjusting at my G12.
When he saw that Db killer, he instantly did want to throw it away. Rubish, he said.
He advised me to make another one, bigger and much, much longer.
The original was about 10-12 cm (4-5 ") long and closed at the front.
The one I made is about 30 cm (12 ") long, with more holes which I bend a bit inwards and the front open.
The open airbox is making nearly more "noise" as the exhaust.
When I'm driving around 130 Km/h (80-85 Mph) my G12 is very silent.
My G12 will let you hear him at fast accellleration, than the "music" is starting...
♫♪ It's a beautiful noise... ♪♫

Ad B

 

[Chicago Mark]

Something just doesn't sound right with the results you're getting. With an open air box and a K&N you should be running way too lean. But you said you get soot on the Mistral baffle plug which made me think it was running too rich. Maybe the modified ECU is running way on the rich side. I can't imagine my G12 not being eager and willing to peg the tach in any gear.

Perhaps with your intake modifications, the engine is simply trying to take in more air than it can deal with. The result 'could' be a very confused EFI system and a failure to rev. If you're trying to take in more air than it can deal with and exhaust, that might explain why when you take the Mistral baffle out, it revs higher.

My intake, exhaust and EFI systems are all box stock. I also have the latest map installed. I get amazing power, in any gear, at any speed by a simple twist of the right wrist. I also get great gas mileage. Are you able to bring your intake and ECU systems back to stock trim and then verify the modifications one by one? Do you have the latest 068 map installed in the original ECU? That map seems to make a world of difference on the 8v engine with everything else remaining stock.

My point is the bike can be made to run wonderfully in stock trim. If it won't, there are other things to consider prior to adding items made to improve how it should have run in the first place.

Keep us posted on what's going on with it,

Mark

 

[GTM®]

Drew runs my flashed ECU, which was set up for an open muffler (not baffled).

If you *think* your G8V runs good with the 068 map, you don't know what you are missing. :whistle:

 

[Penis Rotor]

I'd still like to know what sort of fuel economy figures are being got? I'll bet they are absolutely lousy and that is down to the camming. Have you experimented with those German cams yet Todd?

Pete

 

[GTM®]

I'd still like to know what sort of fuel economy figures are being got? I'll bet they are absolutely lousy and that is down to the camming. Have you experimented with those German cams yet Todd?

Not yet Pete, but soon. My broken limb has me still on crutches.

 

[Penis Rotor]

Todd, I'll quite happily admit I'm wrong on the camming issue if and when I have the proof :lol: . Do me a favor and flash me up a loaner ECU and I'll stick it in the Green Horror, take out the dB killer and open up he airbox, I'll then give a completely objective assesment and spend some time on the dyno getting figures. After that I'll happily pay you for the re-flash if I think it makes ecconomic sense for me to do so and the results warrant it. Otherwise I'll just send it back?

Pete

 

[Chicago Mark]

Todd,

Oh no, how'd you break you leg? I'll be praying that you heal to full restoration status in record time.

Regarding my great running, box stock, 068 mapped, impressive fuel mileage wonderful white G12. I wanted one of these since first seeing the G11. Then the G12 model intensified my desire to a near blind lust. But all I read for a long time was about how the 8v engine was having 'issues' in fueling, cams, tappets etc. The mechanical bits are much easier to address and did get done but the fueling was still an issue in that it didn't seem to wake up till you hit 5,000 rpm. The 068 map seemed to take forever. Prior to that everything I read regarding the 8v power was "it's like the 1100 till about 80mph then it'll pull really hard". I'm a street rider and around here, you simply can't get up to 100mph very much.
I have a lot of faith in my Guzzi dealer, Jim Barron at Rose Farm Classics in Woodstock, IL. I likely wouldn't have bought a new Guzzi without him. When he first showed me the 09 8v leftover in April of this year I simply couldn't believe it. One quick press of the starter button and the bike would settle into a sweet and steady idle. Cold or hot, the engine would throttle beautiful. We discussed all the horror stories I've been reading about and Jim explained everything in as much detail as I wanted.
I've also been paying ettention to Pete Ropers posts here and on wildguzzi for many years. So I thought I knew what to expect and what these bikes were capable of. My G12, as set up in box stock trim simply exceeds any standard I've heard or read about. Like I said, mine is box stock, set-up as designed and I couldn't be happier. There's nothing but smooth power from idle to red line. It does pull very, very hard over 5,000rpm but it certainly isn't the 'light switch' story I read about. I don't even want the Guzzi/Termi pipe anymore because with the db killer in, (which it needs to be to not lose hp) it's so close to the original and good sounding Mini Me muffler.
But, if Pete Roper gives your system the thumbs up in the real world where these bikes are actually ridden on the street, I'll be a believer too. I don't get a lot of time on my big G but I typically ride it around here between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. Sure I make the little red light come on when conditions allow. But still, over 95% of the time, I'm probably between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. Race track or road course racing is a whole different deal IMHO. So if a modified ECU, an open air box, a K&N and open mufflers will take my top speed from 135mph to 140mph, I won't give a rip.
Even with my fat load on my G12, I average around 35mpg. But like I said, I'm open to being impressed and changing my point of view for 'real world' riding conditions.

All the best,

Mark

 

[Ad B]

Hi,

... But, if Pete Roper gives your system the thumbs up in the real world where these bikes are actually ridden on the street, I'll be a believer too. I don't get a lot of time on my big G but I typically ride it around here between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. Sure I make the little red light come on when conditions allow. But still, over 95% of the time, I'm probably between 3,000 and 5,000 rpm. Race track or road course racing is a whole different deal IMHO. So if a modified ECU, an open air box, a K&N and open mufflers will take my top speed from 135mph to 140mph, I won't give a rip.
Mark

Like you Mark, the most of us drive most of the time between 3000 and 5-6000 Rpm.
And it doesn't matter to me that my G12 gives good top end numbers on the power bench.
100 HP, 105 or 110 who cares. It's not that important.
But look at the torque curve, just the shape.

My original (the bleu one) has a massive dip between 3500 and 6000 Rpm.
Now (the grey one) it's a very, very, very tiny dippie around 4000-4500 Rpm, the rest climbing up in a good matter.
The drivability is so much better, very much smoother.
So for example Todds mapping, K&N and open box really helps. Also the not important top end numbers.
My feul economy didn't change, between 7 and 5 Ltr/100Km (33-47 Mpg US).
It depends how and where I use the bike, fast or easy, countryroads or constant driving on a highway.
Average use a bit less 6 Ltr/100 km (40 Mpg US, 48 Mpg UK).

Try it, feel it, live with it and measure it yourself.
But more important, enjoy it (hopefully as much as I do...)
Ad B

 

[Chicago Mark]

No doubt, your torque curve and your mileage is impressive.

Mark

 

[GTM®]

No doubt, your torque curve and your mileage is impressive.

Mark, not sure what the RB Express module does, but my mods (as have been for almost a decade now) focus primarily on more power everywhere and amazing smoothness at every throttle position... along with typically better fuel mileage and noticeably cooler running. Again, if you think the bike runs well with the 068 map (even bone stock), wait until you ride one with (just) my re-flash. Add the PC-V & AutoTune, and it's a completely different machine.

 

[Drew]

Todd is spot-on. My point is that when everything is lined up properly (baffle out / open airbox / race ECU) the bike runs beautifully. It produces monster power and plays wonderful music (sounds like a 60's muscle car!). If one of those things is changed - it's a no-go. No doubt that it is smoother than stock and produces more power.

-Drew

 

[Penis Rotor]

So how about it Todd?

Hows about a bit of quid-pro-quo for the cams? I've got an ECU floating round in LA somewhere?

Pete

 

[Ad B]

Hi,
have no doubts about Todds package.
I'm sure it's probably the best you can buy at the moment.
Because the costs of transportation and the taxes in my country are that high :evil: , it became to expensive for me.
I used the "half a life of experience" from Ruud Fredriks and his powerbench to make my G12 better.
Ruud did the job, not me... :mrgreen:
Pete, do you want to go for hotter cams?
While it seems that this region is the most "fragile" of the 8v engine.
I would try to modify air/fuell management first, for example by using Todds total package.
Pete, you like driving your G12, with a firm modification like this, you will love it.
Not only the sound, but also the character.

Ad B

 

[Penis Rotor]

No, the issue is not trying to get more radical cams, its that I believe that to get a PCV/AT to work properly there ill have to be some sort of bias factor built into the mapping with the current cams,

For a motor with q modern combustion chamber with 4 valves the 8V cams are absurd! They slam the valves open and closed with very rapid lift, a lot of duration and use a lot of ovrlap. It's for that reason I believe that to run its best the motor needs a fairly restrictive exhaust system and, to a lesser extent, intake system. Too rapid an exit of the exhast charge will tend to 'Drag' the incoming charge out of the cylinder while the valves are on overlap reducing the engine's volumetric efficiency and confusing the O2 sensor into giving poor information to the ECU which in turn will upset fuelling further.

The cams that I bought for Todd to experiment with are a far more "conventional' looking cam for a 4V engine. My guess is that the lobe centres will of been advanced a bit but overlap and the rapidity of the lift wil of both been reduced making "conventional' tuning methods far more practical.

Pete

 

[Ad B]

Hi Pete,
that's interesting... but difficult stuff for me.
I hope you and Todd succeed in your experiment.
I'll keep myself informed (by this forum, ofcourse).

Thanks for putting that amount of time and energie (and more) in it.
We all can get wiser from it and maybe our bikes better.

Ad B

 

[GTM®]

Todd, Oh no, how'd you break you leg? I'll be praying that you heal to full restoration status in record time.

Thanks Mark, tangle with an old fiberglass ladder and having no fear.

Todd is spot-on. My point is that when everything is lined up properly (baffle out / open airbox / race ECU) the bike runs beautifully. It produces monster power and plays wonderful music (sounds like a 60's muscle car!). If one of those things is changed - it's a no-go. No doubt that it is smoother than stock and produces more power.

B) - Thanks Drew. People likely roll their eyes when I tell them that my Stelvio will lift the front tire through the first three gears with the full kit (Air-box mod/high-flow filter, GT-Sx muffler and full GT-Rx fuel system: ECU/PC-V/AT)... but it's the truth. It'll be interesting to see what Pete's spec'ed cams buys us. I'll dyno my S soon with above mods, and post cam install/map revisions once I can walk again.

So how about it Todd? Hows about a bit of quid-pro-quo for the cams? I've got an ECU floating round in LA somewhere?

Pete, no worries. I sent you a direct e-mail on this a day or two ago. Get me the ECU and I'll get it in the mail.